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Vim is the worst editor, except all the other editors

andre.arko.net

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Re: Vim is the worst editor, except all the other editors

#61

Post by seren »

lutusp wrote: post #53
seren wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * To perform multiple operations, like moving the cursor around, entering text, deleting text, searching the document, saving and loading files, requires you to switch modes. Just like vi. All these operations, except entering text, are available from "normal" mode which is the default mode. This is factually incorrect that you need to switch mode to delete something, or save a file.

> This is factually incorrect ... If you, like most people, spend most of your time entering text, then it is factually correct that you must exit the text-entry mode to do anything else. And do you know why this arrangement exists? Because there were teletype terminals and early glass terminals that didn't have control keys. No control keys, no way to exploit their existence. SO there had to be a magic character to…

Vim/GVim actually do support the mouse since a while. You can select, copy/paste, resize your split windows, etc, using the mouse. GVim even has typical menus, not so different than wordpad. However, I agree with you that for other features, like using different fonts at once, Vim is limited or feels constrained.

Re: Vim is the worst editor, except all the other editors

#62

Post by jamesbooker »

lutusp wrote: post #46
aidos wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kudos on Apple Writer - but I think you're confusing easy to learn and more powerful. The modes that you complain about (and let's be honest - there are really just 2 that you use) are what make it so powerful. You don't go into another mode to perform those operations - they're already there, and just a keystroke away. You go into another mode to insert text. By making that compromise you make the system faster and…

> The modes that you complain about (and let's be honest - there are really just 2 that you use) ... No, to switch from entering text, to deleting text, to searching for text, to copying and pasting text, to saving a file, to loading a file, all require switching modes. Let's be honest. > By making that compromise you make the system faster and more powerful ... Having to enter additional keystrokes, a throwback to a…

No extra keystrokes required, which was your original argument, moron.

Please fuck off, actually learn to use vim properly (its changed a lot from the ancient editor you used) and then come back with some arguments that are accurate and based on facts.

I guarantee you will learn a few things that you can out into that crappy editor that you maintain (you know, the one that needs an ENTIRE JRE TO RUN)

Re: Vim is the worst editor, except all the other editors

#63

Post by lutusp »

pestaa wrote: post #55
lutusp wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... why do you insist on visiting these threads and reliving such horrid memories? That's easy to answer -- as astonishing as it may sound, people are still using vim. Some of them might even think it's natural to have to use twice as many keystrokes as are required on a modern editor, even another command-line editor, to switch from editing to navigating (as just one example). > I'm not sure who you're trying to s…

Please tell me more about this modern editor where half the keystrokes get the same job done. Or tell me about any editor where the same amount of keystrokes get the same job done.

I can't drag you kicking and screaming into the early twenty-first century. You have to make that trip on your own.

Re: Vim is the worst editor, except all the other editors

#64

Post by aidos »

lutusp wrote: post #46
aidos wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kudos on Apple Writer - but I think you're confusing easy to learn and more powerful. The modes that you complain about (and let's be honest - there are really just 2 that you use) are what make it so powerful. You don't go into another mode to perform those operations - they're already there, and just a keystroke away. You go into another mode to insert text. By making that compromise you make the system faster and…

> The modes that you complain about (and let's be honest - there are really just 2 that you use) ... No, to switch from entering text, to deleting text, to searching for text, to copying and pasting text, to saving a file, to loading a file, all require switching modes. Let's be honest. > By making that compromise you make the system faster and more powerful ... Having to enter additional keystrokes, a throwback to a…

You'll need to provide explicit examples of where any of those operations requires more keystrokes in vim than any other editor - I can't think of any.

You're calling vim commands "modes" to deliberately make it sound more complex than it is.

I want to change to next 3 words. I type 'c3w' - you're saying that's modal - which it sort of vaugly is. I could have done 'v3w' to highlight the next 3 words (something you would do in any other editor). Then I hit 's' to substitute them for something else. No mode involved (other than the selection - which is the same for any editor).

I stand by my assertions - it's up to you to provide the counter examples to back up your claims.

Re: Vim is the worst editor, except all the other editors

#65

Post by pestaa »

bpizzi wrote: post #37

> I've been using it full-time for just over three months now. That's it: you just need to give it more time. One simply can't expect to fully climb vim's learning curve in just a quarter of a year. Your brain can't adapt so rapidly to so much new shortcuts. > Jump to CSS selector. Jump to class. Fuzzy string matching. All these things and more are what I am used to. Vim just can't do them. That's one example among o…

I like the spirit, but how will Vim's marking system help me jump to a CSS selector in an unbuffered stylesheet?

I'm really curious; missing this feature from heavyweight IDEs.

Re: Vim is the worst editor, except all the other editors

#66

Post by jbri »

lutusp wrote: post #53
seren wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * To perform multiple operations, like moving the cursor around, entering text, deleting text, searching the document, saving and loading files, requires you to switch modes. Just like vi. All these operations, except entering text, are available from "normal" mode which is the default mode. This is factually incorrect that you need to switch mode to delete something, or save a file.

> This is factually incorrect ... If you, like most people, spend most of your time entering text, then it is factually correct that you must exit the text-entry mode to do anything else. And do you know why this arrangement exists? Because there were teletype terminals and early glass terminals that didn't have control keys. No control keys, no way to exploit their existence. SO there had to be a magic character to…

I'll point out that any modern version of vim uses mice just fine. It also uses the system clipboard just fine.

The reason most vim users stick with the keyboard is because using a short key combination to select and manipulate text is measurably faster than moving your hand off the keyboard, manipulating a mouse or touchscreen, and then moving it back to continue typing.

Re: Vim is the worst editor, except all the other editors

#67

Post by merijnv »

ezyang wrote: post #30
IanCal wrote: post #18

1) Dump Janus, add the plugins you actually want 2) True 3) :set paste 4) Then wrap it in a function 5) I've always found ctrl-p to be snappy actually. You can replace the matcher with ag or similar > write the Vim configuration lines required to cause those files to be ignored. You have got to be kidding me. Write a small amount of config once per project? It's no more complex than adding things to a UI set wildigno…

Re (3), no, :set paste does not fix his problem.

]p does, though.

That pastes with adjust indentation.

Re: Vim is the worst editor, except all the other editors

#68

Post by jeremysmyth »

lutusp wrote: post #53
seren wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * To perform multiple operations, like moving the cursor around, entering text, deleting text, searching the document, saving and loading files, requires you to switch modes. Just like vi. All these operations, except entering text, are available from "normal" mode which is the default mode. This is factually incorrect that you need to switch mode to delete something, or save a file.

> This is factually incorrect ... If you, like most people, spend most of your time entering text, then it is factually correct that you must exit the text-entry mode to do anything else. And do you know why this arrangement exists? Because there were teletype terminals and early glass terminals that didn't have control keys. No control keys, no way to exploit their existence. SO there had to be a magic character to…

I feel the need to point out that everyone else is talking about vim, but you're talking about vi. Could that explain some of the differences in how you remember things based on how they are?

Re: Vim is the worst editor, except all the other editors

#69

Post by klibertp »

lutusp wrote: post #46
aidos wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kudos on Apple Writer - but I think you're confusing easy to learn and more powerful. The modes that you complain about (and let's be honest - there are really just 2 that you use) are what make it so powerful. You don't go into another mode to perform those operations - they're already there, and just a keystroke away. You go into another mode to insert text. By making that compromise you make the system faster and…

> The modes that you complain about (and let's be honest - there are really just 2 that you use) ... No, to switch from entering text, to deleting text, to searching for text, to copying and pasting text, to saving a file, to loading a file, all require switching modes. Let's be honest. > By making that compromise you make the system faster and more powerful ... Having to enter additional keystrokes, a throwback to a…

> No, to switch from entering text, to deleting text, to searching for text, to copying and pasting text, to saving a file, to loading a file, all require switching modes. Let's be honest.

Please define a mode and define mode switching. It's obvious we use different definitions for those and so we can't have meaningful discussion.

Re: Vim is the worst editor, except all the other editors

#70

Post by lutusp »

existencebox wrote: post #56
lutusp wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... why do you insist on visiting these threads and reliving such horrid memories? That's easy to answer -- as astonishing as it may sound, people are still using vim. Some of them might even think it's natural to have to use twice as many keystrokes as are required on a modern editor, even another command-line editor, to switch from editing to navigating (as just one example). > I'm not sure who you're trying to s…

On the contrary, you seem to be the "True Believer" refusing to be dissuaded. Is it so hard to believe there might be a degree of personal preference and intuition to a certain approach that one might want to keep using it? Typically, a good engineer prides himself on using The Right Tool For The Job (TM) modulo by an appropriate degree what works well for him. (Especially in something like editor where the choice is…

> Typically, a good engineer prides himself on using The Right Tool For The Job ...

Do you also write Fortran? You may or may not be surprised to learn that I have nearly identical debates with diehard Fortran programmers who try to argue that Fortran is anything but a way to support a vast amount of legacy code that no one wants to rewrite (for very good reasons).

Fortran is not the right tool for the job. It once was, but now there are many programs of high economic value that for all intents and purposes cannot be rewritten, for example all the FAA code behind the air traffic control system, as a result of which Fortran will be with us for decades to come.

But no one voluntarily writes new programs in Fortran, at least not if they expect to remain employed. That's true, but try to tell a Fortran programmer this.

Those debates have a lot in common with this one.

My reason for engaging in both debates to to save young programmers from picking up a museum piece without being aware of its legacy status, and thereby crippling themselves and their careers.

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