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Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

nytimes.com

41–50 of 264 posts

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#41
post #30
post #11

Great closing paragraph: My working and personal relationship with President Obama is marked by growing trust. I appreciate this. I carefully studied his address to the nation on Tuesday. And I would rather disagree with a case he made on American exceptionalism, stating that the United States’ policy is “what makes America different. It’s what makes us exceptional.” It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to s…

Yeah, the statement is all well and good, but I'm no fan of being lectured about the spread of dangerous ideas by a man who thinks homosexuality is contagious and whose power was mostly gained by family ties and rank in the Kremlin pre-collapse.

This is actually a very generous account of how Putin rose to power.

See: http://www.amazon.com/The-Man-Without-Face-Unlikely/dp/15944...

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#42
post #16

I can't say I disagree with a lot of what he says. But I doubt he honestly believes in all of this. This rationalization just happens to coincide with his (and Russia's) interests. I think he'd do better to stay silent and let me come to this conclusion on my own instead of feeling dirty for having him agree with me.

Take it as an opportunity to separate ideas from persons. You may agree with an idea even if you dislike the person proposing it (and the other way around, of course).

True. It certainly hasn't changed my mind on the Syria situation, though it has perhaps stated a lot of what I was thinking a lot more eloquently than I could.

I'm not sure who this is trying to convince. People who agree with him like me, it probably won't affect much. People who want to invade Syria are the type of people that will see his name and only feel vindicated in their belief. You know Fox News, et al. will spam their viewers with "This is what Putin says, it must be wrong."

I don't know if there is really a lot of people sitting on the fence on this one, other than the apathetic who won't read it anyway.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#43
post #11

Great closing paragraph: My working and personal relationship with President Obama is marked by growing trust. I appreciate this. I carefully studied his address to the nation on Tuesday. And I would rather disagree with a case he made on American exceptionalism, stating that the United States’ policy is “what makes America different. It’s what makes us exceptional.” It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to s…

Unfortunately you have to know a bit of Russian to pick up on this, but if you watch/read Russian media for a while it becomes obvious how this paragraph is a comical bit of hypocrisy.

The Russians in general and Putin in particular talk all the time about how the Russian soul is exceptional, how Russia is somehow different from western democracies and has its own unique (and largely mystical) economic and political path, how you can't understand it with intellect and can only believe in it (which is a classic bit of Russian poetry internalized by pretty much everyone), and how the Russians are somehow more "spiritual" than everyone else.

Putin has the knack for coming off as fairly reasonable to the western audience, but to someone who was born and raised in the former Soviet Union this reads like something from the Onion.

EDIT: here is a specific example to illustrate my point. In a recent interview, here is how Putin characterized the difference between the American and Russian "soul". He brought up a quote by the main heroine from Gone with the Wind where she said "I can't imagine what it would be like to be hungry all the time". Putin then pointed out that something like this is a primary concern of an American soul (implying base concerns for physical comforts), while this wouldn't be a concern for the Russian soul, which allegedly is concerned with much more important spiritual matters.

This isn't an isolated example -- this happens all the time. Going on NYT and criticizing american exceptionalism seems incredibly hypocritical to me.

EDIT2: I also feel compelled to point out either the sleaziness or sloppy thinking (you decide which one) of taking a single character from a work of fiction and extrapolating it to a conclusion about an entire people (of course in service of "proving" that Americans are far baser people than the Russians).

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#45

"There is every reason to believe [sarin gas] was used not by the Syrian Army, but by opposition forces, to provoke intervention by their powerful foreign patrons, who would be siding with the fundamentalists." Obama asserted something quite different in last night's address. He stated that the Syrian army distributed gas masks to their soldiers before the attacks, that documents show Syrian generals reviewing the re…

I would tend to believe Obama because he is much more credible than Putin, and has much more to lose if he can't produce evidence to support his claims.

I'm sure plenty of people will jump on some kind of "LOL you trust Obama?!?" bandwagon, but I agree with you. But.

I think we've seen the NSA as an example of a government body out of control. I don't believe anyone in power knew the full extent of what they were doing - after all, why risk telling Obama when you already have all the money and leverage you need anyway?

My roundabout conclusion is this - I don't see any reason why the US does not declassify at least some of this evidence. Because I don't trust that vested interests haven't manipulated things in order to get what they want.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#47

Putin (or his representatives) knows his audience. This piece eschews the normal alpha bravado that I would expect from Putin in favor of a coherent argument in favor of restraint. I found myself not merely nodding along, but inspired, and I hope that we can at least agree with him on this. It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United State…

Assad's media consultants also did an excellent job with his TV appearance (I assume they were Lebanese?). He basically was in the context of a US voter or politician making a seemingly sane and rational appeal.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#48
Putin is a stone cold dictator, but he is very sophisticated about it. And here you see how deftly he manipulates public sentiment and perception. Who wouldn't want peace and cooperation?

Using tomahawk diplomacy against Syria was never a good idea. And "unbelievably small" strikes against Assad's regime was just a stupid threat to make. Chemical weapons are only a tiny part of the many very serious and relevant (even to Americans) geopolitical issues at stake in the Syrian civil war right now. A handful of bombing runs would be unlikely to improve the situation, even in regards to preventing the use of chemical weapons.

But I can guarantee you that Putin cares not the slightest about the citizens of Syria. His interests are with maintaining the Assad regime, as a geopolitical ally, and extracting money from Syria through arms trade. But now he has an opening to rub America's nose in a very public foreign policy failure. The president doesn't want to get involved in Syria but he set a "red line", which has been crossed repeatedly, and now he's forced into an enormously uncomfortable spot. And while the US wriggles out of this snare Putin will take as much geopolitical advantage out of the situation as he possibly can. Which will be a lot. Because he is very skilled at this game and everyone else (the US, France, even the UNSC) has already put their cards out on the table for everyone to see.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#49
post #11

Great closing paragraph: My working and personal relationship with President Obama is marked by growing trust. I appreciate this. I carefully studied his address to the nation on Tuesday. And I would rather disagree with a case he made on American exceptionalism, stating that the United States’ policy is “what makes America different. It’s what makes us exceptional.” It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to s…

"we must not forget that God created us equal." As long as you're not gay.

IIRC, that's illegal in Russia, unfortunately.

America is known for being religious in general, so this line will work well with his target audience, in general.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#50
post #30
post #11

Great closing paragraph: My working and personal relationship with President Obama is marked by growing trust. I appreciate this. I carefully studied his address to the nation on Tuesday. And I would rather disagree with a case he made on American exceptionalism, stating that the United States’ policy is “what makes America different. It’s what makes us exceptional.” It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to s…

Yeah, the statement is all well and good, but I'm no fan of being lectured about the spread of dangerous ideas by a man who thinks homosexuality is contagious and whose power was mostly gained by family ties and rank in the Kremlin pre-collapse.

I don't think things are all as simple as Putin's personal opinions on homosexuality.

In fact, I think it is very helpful to see what an eloquent and reasonable public statement can be created by someone who advocates policies so awful.

We are inclined by nature to treat the public opinions and actions of world leaders as internal to themselves, rather than ones simply chosen by expediency. If Russia were in a different situation, if Russia's public felt differently, if Putin ruled a different nation, the same man would produce a statement through the bureaucracy and the PR folk which would be entirely different.

In other words, when reading statements by world leaders, our natural inclinations to judge the accuracy, worth and truth of what is said are entirely worthless. The whole thing is manufactured by highly, highly competent organizations which can produce whatever gems are required of them.

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