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Huge water reserve discovered in Kenya

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Re: Huge water reserve discovered in Kenya

#31

Post by InclinedPlane »

PakG1 wrote: post #15

I don't claim to understand African issues very well, so take my comments with the grain of salt that I'm very ignorant. The civil wars that happen in certain African nations are troubling. But what was more troubling to me was reading news how factions would take control by poisoning wells that provided water for citizens. It was unthinkable to me that someone could actually do that, especially in certain areas wher…

This isn't a new thing. Land mines have been used to deny farmland to the enemy, which has effects that last for decades if not centuries. War has always been hell.

Re: Huge water reserve discovered in Kenya

#32

Post by chad_oliver »

eloff wrote: post #26
chad_oliver wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You raise some important issues, but if anything I actually think that this aquifer is going to reduce the conflict in this area. The civil wars, rape, and poisoning are all symptoms of a deeper illness: poverty. Africans aren't more corrupt or warlike than anyone else, they're just poorer and therefore more desperate. Conflict minerals (diamonds, coltan, etc) fuel conflict because they are easy to control. It only t…

You can't explain away centuries (millenia in some cases) of tribalism, with hatred and fear and discrimination passed from parents to children for generations as mere poverty. Poverty plays a role to be sure, but the situation is more complex (it always is.)

Sorry, I did not mean to discount the impact of tribalism. It is certainly a significant issue in East Africa (I can't speak for other areas). The history of the USA shows that even affluent western countries suffer from the Us vs Them mindset.

That said, I do believe that poverty is the more significant issue. Increased development generally correlates with stronger government [1], and with better access to government. When this happens, disputes are more likely to be resolved through the legal system.

I'm not an expert on the interaction between tribalism and warfare in developing countries, so don't think I'm trying to claim infallibility. This is just what I believe to be true.

[1] I say correlates, because I can't say that development causes stronger government. It could be the other way around

EDIT: Okay, now it's my turn to ask: what did I say wrong? Would you like to discuss it, rather than just downvoting?.

Re: Huge water reserve discovered in Kenya

#33

Post by Dylan16807 »

has2k1 wrote: post #23
pokoleo wrote: post #2

I hate to be that guy , but is this relevant?

(if (< hate-to-be-that-guy urge-to-be-that-guy) (be-that-guy) (not be-that-guy))

You're ignoring the 'think it's important that the point is raised' factor. If there was a user-visible flagging mechanism, then a hate-to-be-that-guy would use it and never feel any urge to make an annoying post, win-win. I strongly doubt that most people claiming to 'hate to be that guy' are lying.

Re: Huge water reserve discovered in Kenya

#34

Post by jonnathanson »

sologoub wrote: post #19
PakG1 wrote: post #15

I don't claim to understand African issues very well, so take my comments with the grain of salt that I'm very ignorant. The civil wars that happen in certain African nations are troubling. But what was more troubling to me was reading news how factions would take control by poisoning wells that provided water for citizens. It was unthinkable to me that someone could actually do that, especially in certain areas wher…

Africa has a very long history of not only various factions fighting, but tribal conflicts that go back centuries. Things were only made worse as colonial powers played different tribes against each other. Add to this organized crime, religious hatred, and generally low regard for life, and we have what we have. Also, "poisoning the well" is a well documented military tactic in European heritage as well. Similarly de…

Indeed, African militias do not have a monopoly on "poisoning the well" or other scorched-earth tactics. For a fantastic Western example, I would humbly point us all in the direction of our own nation's conduct in the Vietnam War, viz., with Agent Orange.

The explicit aim of the Agent Orange campaigns was to render cropland useless, starving rural Vietnamese out of the countryside and driving them into (US-dominated) cities. Entire ecosystems were devastated as a result, and generations of Vietnamese suffered the aftermath.

This was basically the 20th Century equivalent of the old Roman tactic of sewing salt into the enemy's wheat fields.

Re: Huge water reserve discovered in Kenya

#35

Post by Dylan16807 »

0X1A wrote: post #10
rabino wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully people will, you know, stop dying and we hackers can go back to do real relevant things like instagram clones and settle once and for all which one is the better Lisp.

Cmon, you can't really expect an audience base that is probably mostly introverted and cynical to actually find joy in reading about a positive find in a third world country could you? In all seriousness though, I think this can be well developed if it isn't exploited by privatization. Since, ya know, most things that would be greatly beneficial to developing countries usually are.

There's a difference between caring about something and thinking it's intellectually stimulating. There's no need to insult people because they think HN is a bad place to post good news that has no takeaway value.

(I feel dirty for using the word 'takeaway' but I can't think of anything that fits better to mean an overly-broad version of 'learning'.)

Re: Huge water reserve discovered in Kenya

#36

Post by JabavuAdams »

Fantastic!

Let's concoct some overly optimistic growth statistics for how this will stimulate the Kenyan economy. Let's say 19% for the first 10 years, then 15% for 10 more, then 12% for the next five.

Based on those fudged figures, we'll convince the government to take on excessive debt to pay for water development, etc. projects. Since the figures are fudged, and since we'll do this hand in hand with local elites / kleptocrats, they'll never be able to repay the debt.

We'll funnel this money right back to Western consulting and construction firms.

When locals who are having their lives destroyed by the development projects start to demonstrate, we'll squeeze them until they turn to violence and call them terrorists.

When the real international terrorists join in to fight the evil imperialists (us), we'll drone-strike, death-squad, and black-site them, citing our earlier failure to act in Sudan.

Can you tell I've been reading _Confessions of an Economic Hitman_? I am excited about the new iPhone, though.

Re: Huge water reserve discovered in Kenya

#37

Post by rabino »

biot wrote: post #30
rabino wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully people will, you know, stop dying and we hackers can go back to do real relevant things like instagram clones and settle once and for all which one is the better Lisp.

Some other suggestions along the same lines as you suggest: Interrupt a court case so that the courtroom can appreciate the plight of dying African children before they get back to quibbling over legal wording. Speak at a conference for accountants so that they can appreciate the plight of dying African children before they get back to fiddling with spreadsheets. Share this in sexual abuse groups so that they can app…

Here's a novel idea: Post that WATEX publication and let's see how many upvotes it gets vs. this one here. Let's allow democracy to do its thing.

Re: Huge water reserve discovered in Kenya

#38

Post by rewind »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #36

Fantastic! Let's concoct some overly optimistic growth statistics for how this will stimulate the Kenyan economy. Let's say 19% for the first 10 years, then 15% for 10 more, then 12% for the next five. Based on those fudged figures, we'll convince the government to take on excessive debt to pay for water development, etc. projects. Since the figures are fudged, and since we'll do this hand in hand with local elites /…

The positivity on HN lately is almost too much to handle.

Re: Huge water reserve discovered in Kenya

#40

Post by chad_oliver »

chrischen wrote: post #27
chad_oliver wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You raise some important issues, but if anything I actually think that this aquifer is going to reduce the conflict in this area. The civil wars, rape, and poisoning are all symptoms of a deeper illness: poverty. Africans aren't more corrupt or warlike than anyone else, they're just poorer and therefore more desperate. Conflict minerals (diamonds, coltan, etc) fuel conflict because they are easy to control. It only t…

> Africans aren't more corrupt or warlike than anyone else How do you know? My history teacher never hesitated to teach us how Prussia was good at war, and how France sucked at war. Edit: this is an honest question. If I said anything wrong, please let me know as well.

Africans at the moment are, as a group, the most corrupt people on earth [1]. This is equivalent to saying that Prussians were better than the French at making war.

However, this different from saying that Africans are inherently corrupt, or that every Frenchman is destined to make a terrible soldier. I intended to assert that Africans aren't inherently corrupt, and I think you were downvoted because people thought you were disputing this.

[1] http://www.transparency.org/whatwedo/pub/global_corruption_b...

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