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Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

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Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#41

Post by EvanAnderson »

threeseed wrote: post #39
EvanAnderson wrote: post #7

This fingerprint sensor and its potential use for payments is rather disturbing to me. I am (rightly, I would argue) apprehensive about general purpose computers acting in a "trustworthy" manner. I hope that this fingerprint sensor, which undoubtedly will be incorporated into authentication for payment systems, doesn't usher in a future of reliance on a fundamentally untrustworthy device. I really, really worry that…

Seriously you need to ask yourself if this paranoid borderline delusional state is really worth it. If the government wanted to "get you" then they could do quite fine with all the existing technologies. If they wanted to frame a crime scene they could put your DNA everywhere. If they wanted to steal your bank accounts they could get your internet banking details. They have already been harbouring fingerprints for de…

My real worry is malware and fraud from private actors-- not governments. Criminals seem to be willing to go to amazing technical lengths to steal.

Looking at the personal computer software ecosystem and home computers, which are often bristling with malware, and extrapolating to phones, which will certainly have a larger install-base than personal computers, doesn't seem delusional at all. That's a ripe target for criminals.

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#42

Post by edwinnathaniel »

EvanAnderson wrote: post #41
threeseed wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously you need to ask yourself if this paranoid borderline delusional state is really worth it. If the government wanted to "get you" then they could do quite fine with all the existing technologies. If they wanted to frame a crime scene they could put your DNA everywhere. If they wanted to steal your bank accounts they could get your internet banking details. They have already been harbouring fingerprints for de…

My real worry is malware and fraud from private actors-- not governments. Criminals seem to be willing to go to amazing technical lengths to steal. Looking at the personal computer software ecosystem and home computers, which are often bristling with malware, and extrapolating to phones, which will certainly have a larger install-base than personal computers, doesn't seem delusional at all. That's a ripe target for c…

My concern is with our physical being: determined/desperate criminals will chop of your fingers during robbery.

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#43

Post by mariusz79 »

transfire wrote: post #35

I can't believe it took this long and it was left to Apple to "innovate" on this. Adding a fingerprint scanner to every keyboard and mouse has been a no-brainer for at least a decade. The scanners cost $10! And adding them to smartphone and tablets should have happened from the get go. We're talking orders of magnitude in simplification of security. And its dead obvious. So what the hell took so long? And why does it…

Two words: Atrix 4G. Google it and then let's talk how innovating the new IPhone is.

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#44

Post by Nicholas_C »

transfire wrote: post #35

I can't believe it took this long and it was left to Apple to "innovate" on this. Adding a fingerprint scanner to every keyboard and mouse has been a no-brainer for at least a decade. The scanners cost $10! And adding them to smartphone and tablets should have happened from the get go. We're talking orders of magnitude in simplification of security. And its dead obvious. So what the hell took so long? And why does it…

Bloomberg has been on it for a while. All of the newer terminals have fingerprint scanners.

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#45

Post by Amadou »

edwinnathaniel wrote: post #42
EvanAnderson wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My real worry is malware and fraud from private actors-- not governments. Criminals seem to be willing to go to amazing technical lengths to steal. Looking at the personal computer software ecosystem and home computers, which are often bristling with malware, and extrapolating to phones, which will certainly have a larger install-base than personal computers, doesn't seem delusional at all. That's a ripe target for c…

My concern is with our physical being: determined/desperate criminals will chop of your fingers during robbery.

Here's the problem I see - your phone is covered with your fingerprints. If someone steals your phone they've got your prints.

How long will it be until a super cheap fingerprint spoof kit is available? I envision something as simple as using some rubber cement to lift a print from the phone's case, sprinkle some dust (toner?) on it to emphasize the minutiae and then wrapping it around your own finger.

It will probably be more complicated than that, but all it takes is someone to discover a vulnerability in the hardware and all current phones will become insecure. The one thing you can count on is that if there is money to be had, there will be a lot of effort expended trying to find such vulnerabilities.

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#46

Post by narrator »

Fingerprints aren't changeable and they're not really secrets. Security fail. They are good for things like tracking convicts or parolees or DRM shackled users which are usage scenario were you don't want people to be able to change their identifier but that's about it. Also there's no distinction between the identity and a password. It's the same mistake made with SSNs.

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#47

Post by johansch »

iamshs wrote: post #8
mrt0mat0 wrote: post #4

I think security via fingerprint may be a mistake. What happens if someone gets a copy of your fingerprint, what do you do for security at that point? get a new fingerprint? The NFC Ring is a better idea than fingerprint security. i think the idea will fall short of good security quickly. This is all speculation, and I am by no means an expert on security.

The sensor is epi-dermal, which means reads underneath the skin, so it does not solely rely on seeing the prints. There is a steel ring, which probably senses capacitance. Will there be exploits? Probably. Are Apple engineers incompetent to think of obvious exploits? I would put my money on NO. In any case, I would like to see the evolution of this tech.

A few years ago, some students from my local university went around to all of the fingerprint solution companies that were exhibiting at the CeBIT fair. All of the products that the respective companies agreed to be challenged were in fact fooled by something that originated as a fingerprint on a drinking glass.

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#48

Post by windexh8er »

threeseed wrote: post #39
EvanAnderson wrote: post #7

This fingerprint sensor and its potential use for payments is rather disturbing to me. I am (rightly, I would argue) apprehensive about general purpose computers acting in a "trustworthy" manner. I hope that this fingerprint sensor, which undoubtedly will be incorporated into authentication for payment systems, doesn't usher in a future of reliance on a fundamentally untrustworthy device. I really, really worry that…

Seriously you need to ask yourself if this paranoid borderline delusional state is really worth it. If the government wanted to "get you" then they could do quite fine with all the existing technologies. If they wanted to frame a crime scene they could put your DNA everywhere. If they wanted to steal your bank accounts they could get your internet banking details. They have already been harbouring fingerprints for de…

Quite short sighted. It's not at all about being paranoid. This is a key, that if stolen is not able to be discarded and regenerated. It's fundamentally flawed as once it's compromised, and it will be, you're SOL.

Or, do you actually believe you'll live behind the walled garden that is Apple and have the faith in them to protect one of your biometric markers at the first trial?

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#49

Post by JaggedJax »

mariusz79 wrote: post #43
transfire wrote: post #35

I can't believe it took this long and it was left to Apple to "innovate" on this. Adding a fingerprint scanner to every keyboard and mouse has been a no-brainer for at least a decade. The scanners cost $10! And adding them to smartphone and tablets should have happened from the get go. We're talking orders of magnitude in simplification of security. And its dead obvious. So what the hell took so long? And why does it…

Two words: Atrix 4G. Google it and then let's talk how innovating the new IPhone is.

The Atrix 4G was a device a bit ahead of it's time. That coupled with impressive but expensive peripherals (laptop dock) kept it from becoming a breakout device. Also, the fingerprint reader was one of the sliding ones and I got fed up with it very quickly.

You're right though. With all this discussion about the fingerprint reader, I just keep hearing "Atrix 4g" being shouted and echoing around inside my head.

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#50

Post by tomphoolery »

Not just that, I can't wait to see what else Apple has in mind for this thing. I've been waiting for the day where my phone/mobile device is the thing that logs me into Facebook, Google, et. al., and not a stupid password that's auto-generated anyway. It's really hard to crack your password when you don't have one! And who's going to "hack" my fingerprint??
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