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Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

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Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#31

Post by EvanAnderson »

sjtgraham wrote: post #9
EvanAnderson wrote: post #7

This fingerprint sensor and its potential use for payments is rather disturbing to me. I am (rightly, I would argue) apprehensive about general purpose computers acting in a "trustworthy" manner. I hope that this fingerprint sensor, which undoubtedly will be incorporated into authentication for payment systems, doesn't usher in a future of reliance on a fundamentally untrustworthy device. I really, really worry that…

> I'm thinking about how chip and PIN has been cited as a way to move fraud liability to the consumer. Banks can't do this. Since security researchers managed to fool they bank into believing a transaction was PIN verified while not actually being the case, banks have to prove that a transaction was PIN verified, and I believe physical access to the card is required to do this. > To dumb it down: I'm envisioning a cr…

Banks can't do it, legally, but in the U.K., at least, they've tried anyway: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/saving/article-2215223/Vi...

I am not very optimistic U.S. about banks acting in a strictly legal manner.

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#32

Post by aetch »

NTDF wrote: post #17
swamp40 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you have ten fingers...

All of which have an impression on the phone, that someone could duplicate.

All of which that 'someone' would need to pick out of the thousands of smeared / other people's fingerprints on the same phone's surface.

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#33

Post by nodata »

EvanAnderson wrote: post #7

This fingerprint sensor and its potential use for payments is rather disturbing to me. I am (rightly, I would argue) apprehensive about general purpose computers acting in a "trustworthy" manner. I hope that this fingerprint sensor, which undoubtedly will be incorporated into authentication for payment systems, doesn't usher in a future of reliance on a fundamentally untrustworthy device. I really, really worry that…

> I'm thinking about how chip and PIN has been cited as a way to move fraud liability to the consumer.

Not since 2009, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_and_PIN#Banks_originally_...

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#34

Post by manmal »

iamshs wrote: post #8
mrt0mat0 wrote: post #4

I think security via fingerprint may be a mistake. What happens if someone gets a copy of your fingerprint, what do you do for security at that point? get a new fingerprint? The NFC Ring is a better idea than fingerprint security. i think the idea will fall short of good security quickly. This is all speculation, and I am by no means an expert on security.

The sensor is epi-dermal, which means reads underneath the skin, so it does not solely rely on seeing the prints. There is a steel ring, which probably senses capacitance. Will there be exploits? Probably. Are Apple engineers incompetent to think of obvious exploits? I would put my money on NO. In any case, I would like to see the evolution of this tech.

AFAIK capacitance of your skin can change very frequently and rapidly. Drink too little for two days -> skin dry -> resistance goes up steeply. Even using a touchpad for an hour might dry your skin up (sidenote: I sometimes even have to moisten my fingers so my MBP touchpad registers my touches well).

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#35

Post by transfire »

I can't believe it took this long and it was left to Apple to "innovate" on this. Adding a fingerprint scanner to every keyboard and mouse has been a no-brainer for at least a decade. The scanners cost $10! And adding them to smartphone and tablets should have happened from the get go. We're talking orders of magnitude in simplification of security. And its dead obvious. So what the hell took so long? And why does it take Apple to finally do it?

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#36

Post by usaphp »

I doubt that will happen because PIN/card number is more secure, if somebody stole your PIN or card you can just get a new one, but once somebody stole your fingerprint data - you pretty much are a target for fraud to the rest of your life.

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#37

Post by TobbenTM »

sjtgraham wrote: post #5

I don't know why people think Apple will i) add NFC support to iPhone or ii) enter the payments space. - iBeacons are much more versatile than NFC and Apple owns and drives the specification. - CC processing is a ultra-low margin business and there are other more lucrative markets they should address before considering payments.

Because NFC is being implemented in payment terminals today, and seems to be the upcoming default payment system. With encrypted card details on the SIM card. This will also allow you to pay without battery power on the phone.

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#38

Post by [deleted] »

transfire wrote: post #35

I can't believe it took this long and it was left to Apple to "innovate" on this. Adding a fingerprint scanner to every keyboard and mouse has been a no-brainer for at least a decade. The scanners cost $10! And adding them to smartphone and tablets should have happened from the get go. We're talking orders of magnitude in simplification of security. And its dead obvious. So what the hell took so long? And why does it…

[deleted]

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#39

Post by threeseed »

EvanAnderson wrote: post #7

This fingerprint sensor and its potential use for payments is rather disturbing to me. I am (rightly, I would argue) apprehensive about general purpose computers acting in a "trustworthy" manner. I hope that this fingerprint sensor, which undoubtedly will be incorporated into authentication for payment systems, doesn't usher in a future of reliance on a fundamentally untrustworthy device. I really, really worry that…

Seriously you need to ask yourself if this paranoid borderline delusional state is really worth it.

If the government wanted to "get you" then they could do quite fine with all the existing technologies. If they wanted to frame a crime scene they could put your DNA everywhere. If they wanted to steal your bank accounts they could get your internet banking details. They have already been harbouring fingerprints for decades now.

Nothing Apple has announced will change that one iota.

Re: Apple's fingerprint scanner may be the biggest leap in payments since the C-Card

#40

Post by kemiller »

sjtgraham wrote: post #5

I don't know why people think Apple will i) add NFC support to iPhone or ii) enter the payments space. - iBeacons are much more versatile than NFC and Apple owns and drives the specification. - CC processing is a ultra-low margin business and there are other more lucrative markets they should address before considering payments.

CC processing isn't a play for profits, it's a play for power. Air cover for everything else they do.
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