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To my daughter's high school programming teacher

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Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#511

Post by hackinthebochs »

asdasf wrote: post #503
hackinthebochs wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I stated that it is bullying, not sexism It's not mutually exclusive. The sexism comes from the culture that even makes "make me a sandwich" a remark to use in a bullying context. Bullying comes in all forms, but gender-based bullying has another insidious component in that it re-enforces sexist ideas and cultural norms. This is why addressing it independently is important. Just addressing bullying does not eliminat…

Saying "make me a sandwich" doesn't have power. The environment of "the majority are singling me out" is what has power, the words are quite literally irrelevant. Sexism would be if the boys in the class thought they were better than girls and thus a girl shouldn't be in the class. That is without a doubt not the motivation, but rather the standard "we can pick on this person so we will". There was only one girl in o…

I can't agree with this line of reasoning. The words are not irrelevant. The words "make me a sandwich" aren't powerful because someone of the majority (in, say, a school context) said it, but because of the wider implication that that's a woman's place--making a sandwich for a man. In fact, these sorts of words can be used by people who have little power in a given context because they derive their power from the wider cultural norms. The power dynamics of whatever isolated group under consideration is what is irrelevant. The fact that they chose to bully her in that specific way indicates a sexist train of thought and that must be addressed separately from the issue of bullying. One can bully based on gender without it being sexist. This was not such a case and that fact is meaningful.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#512

Post by asdasf »

lambda wrote: post #510
asdasf wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are you claiming that the original authors daughter was imagining her classmates bullying her? No, I am claiming that the problems the post I replied to was putting forth are imaginary. I am quite aware that bullying is a real problem. >Are you saying that I'm imagining the fact that there are far more men than women in the programming profession? No, I am saying that is not an indication of a problem, much less sys…

OK. Let's start from the beginning. The post you are replying to was a reply to the general tenor of a lot of posts, like yours, in this kind of thread. Posts which try to deny that there's a real problem, that the only reason that there aren't as many women in tech is that they have chosen not to. Anecdotes like the original article, as well as many others that have come before, demonstrate that there is a real prob…

>Anecdotes like the original article, as well as many others that have come before, demonstrate that there is a real problem.

Sure. And that problem is bullying. It has absolutely nothing to do with women in technology. Saying "imaginary problem X is totally real because real problem Y is real" is not logical.

>He's saying that we need to stop being defensive about it, stop trying to deny that problem, and start taking responsibility for hostile and off-putting behavior

And I am saying he is wrong. That's how it works, one person gives their opinion, and another person gives theirs.

>It means speaking up when you hear someone being harassed, it means stopping bullying that's going on right in your classroom

None of which has to do with the nonexistent "technology is full of chauvinists who scare women away" problem.

>So, where is your evidence to back up this claim?

http://www.dailymotion.com/playlists/user/BrainwashingInNorw...

>It's a pretty strong claim, so you had better have some pretty good evidence to back it up.

Why don't you need evidence to back up the claim that women are avoiding certain professions because of sexism?

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#513

Post by asdasf »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #511
asdasf wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "make me a sandwich" doesn't have power. The environment of "the majority are singling me out" is what has power, the words are quite literally irrelevant. Sexism would be if the boys in the class thought they were better than girls and thus a girl shouldn't be in the class. That is without a doubt not the motivation, but rather the standard "we can pick on this person so we will". There was only one girl in o…

I can't agree with this line of reasoning. The words are not irrelevant. The words "make me a sandwich" aren't powerful because someone of the majority (in, say, a school context) said it, but because of the wider implication that that's a woman's place--making a sandwich for a man. In fact, these sorts of words can be used by people who have little power in a given context because they derive their power from the wi…

You are welcome to your opinion, but you aren't welcome to try to force me to accept it as fact. I've seen no evidence to support your interpretation, and all my experience has shown the opposite. What wider implications make the millions of other taunts adolescents hurl at each other effective? Have you spoken to a high school girl before? Do you actually think they believe there is some "woman's place" making a sandwich for a man? The majority of them think it is just something to say, like any other random taunt. Just because you want there to be sexism there, doesn't mean there actually is.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#514

Post by GhotiFish »

IanDrake wrote: post #451
weland wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree with the points you are making -- I certainly don't mean to derail this by a straw man argument, like it already happened above. But I think the importance of this particular incident is... well, somewhat overstated. Because: > So, you see, I was all too familiar with what my daughter was going through, but I was unprepared for the harassment to start in high school, in her programming class. Really?…

Thanks for writing this. I was thinking the same thing. Most everyone has had this problem at one point in time. It seems to me that mom needs to teach her daughter to have a thicker skin...which is the EXACT same lesson I got from my parents.

I appreciate that sentiment, but to be honest, even most adults pressed into that kind of environment would not do well. Remember as an adult you are granted the autonomy to get away from unpleasant situations, and if not that, then the tools to resolve issues fairly.

Children have no tools, and are forced into these situations with no possibility of escape. The thicker skin you describe doesn't exist for the majority of the planet.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#515

Post by nknighthb »

ArtDev wrote: post #465
weland wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree with the points you are making -- I certainly don't mean to derail this by a straw man argument, like it already happened above. But I think the importance of this particular incident is... well, somewhat overstated. Because: > So, you see, I was all too familiar with what my daughter was going through, but I was unprepared for the harassment to start in high school, in her programming class. Really?…

"We were a bunch of stupid fucks".. Guess what? In High School many of us were quite together and tried our best to have fun while avoiding people like you.

I avoided high school entirely because of people like him.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#516

Post by greyfade »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

How "offputting" the field is to women is not, IMO, as problematic as the fact that many girls are discouraged in school, by their teachers from pursuing math or science fields, simply because they're girls.

This is an endemic social problem that prevents girls from even considering sciences.

That, of course, leads to these fields being mostly misogynistic sausage fests, which is also a big problem, but that's one of the symptoms of the culture of education.

... IMO.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#517

Post by GhotiFish »

unlogic wrote: post #480
brokenparser wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's upset that men are naturally stronger than women and female orderlies would delegate the heavy lifting to male co-workers as their preferred tool. At least that's what I gathered.

My parser treated it like this: "There is an objective need for more male orderlies (because they can lift heavy patients), but I was furious that [someone] confronted me on this obvious fact".

Sorry, what I was trying to convey:

There is a larger desire for male orderlies, the reason for that desire are for the "obvious fact" that males are stronger, and can be used for heavy lifting, and protection for and from disorderly patients.

It makes me furious that they can so blatantly state these reasons without fear, where as statements to any effect about the female gender would consistently create backlash. I don't disagree with their reasons, what made me furious was the asymmetry.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#518

Post by wpietri »

orclev wrote: post #485
wpietri wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason we people in tech are trying to stop discrimination in tech is that -- surprise -- we work in tech. Just because people around the world litter is no reason not for me to pick up trash on my street. Also, I believe it is specifically a tech problem. Medicine and law are approaching gender balanced. Tech, though, has been getting worse over the decades.

Two things. First, it's fine to try to stop discrimination in tech in the general sense, but it shouldn't be framed as a problem specifically with tech, doing so narrows the focus to the point at which it can't actually address the general problem only very specific limited instances. Secondly, you're confusing two different issues, the gender imbalance in tech, and gender based discrimination in tech. While it's tru…

You seem to have a lot of theories on how other people should be solving the problem. What specifically are you doing to solve the problem?

To me this sounds like another version of the "you're doing it wrong" anonymous grumbling that the internet provides for pretty much anybody doing anything.

I'm going to keep trying to fix tech the way I think tech should be fixed. Whether or not J. Random Commenter "accepts" my analysis of the problem isn't something I'm worried about. It's a given in pushing for societal change that most people think you're wrong in one way or another; otherwise we would already have made the change.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#519

Post by melindajb »

kunil wrote: post #316

> And then the threats of violence started: "The author of this article is a whiny bitch and needs a good beating to be put in her place." Ten minutes later, the rape threats began, and I shut down our comments site-wide. And then the emails started... Seriously? I am thinking a little exaggeration. I don't think trolls would send e-mails, what is the point if noone reads your trolling. And what is the fault of the t…

" don't think trolls would send e-mails, what is the point if noone reads your trolling."

Then evidently you don't go on the internet very often.

And at least trying to stop the boys would have been a point in his honor. It's called doing his job as a teacher to protect a student from misogynistic bullying.

You see, attacking someone BECAUSE of their gender ("fix me a sandwich") is the very definition of sexual harassment. If someone said, "hey (nword)! shine my shoes!" would the teacher also then be expected to do nothing?

Questioning the author's veracity is a standard derailing tactic in discussions about this type of situation. Since you engaged with the article, you must assume the author is telling the truth, otherwise why bother discussing it?

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#520

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

hacker789 wrote: post #383
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

We must protect the fairer sex at all costs. This use of "privilege" as a targeted weapon to silence specific demographics has to stop. Women in the western world have always been among the safest, most privileged people on Earth. This entire thread, in fact, has been a shining example of female privilege. No one cares that women soundly outnumber men in university admission, and university graduation, and even high…

> This use of "privilege" as a targeted weapon to silence specific demographics has to stop

Your concerns, such as they are, have been discussed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6354789, and here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6353402

With a longer piece on the topic here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6354336 and on the topic of criticism as "silencing" here http://www.popehat.com/2013/09/10/speech-and-consequences/

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