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To my daughter's high school programming teacher

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Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#491

Post by asdasf »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

No, I am not taking responsibility for an imaginary problem. You don't get to tell the world they have to cater to your delusions. Do you know what I hear about this issue from my wife? Variations on "What alternate reality are these people living in?". The only sexism she has experienced is the sort you are displaying: the "lets fall all over ourselves protecting the delicate ladies from the horrors of nothing" sort. She doesn't want to be a female programmer, she wants to be a programmer. Constantly making a fuss about an irrelevant detail like her gender is alienating, not helpful. You are making the field off-putting to her, not the evil chauvinist boogeymen she has never seen.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#492

Post by ForrestN »

Dewie wrote: post #434
ForrestN wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only really think of two ways of understanding the extreme gender imbalance in these jobs. Either there are systemic discriminatory forces at work, or women are somehow inherently ill-suited for programming jobs (ie. because of cognitive deficiency). I worry, but of course couldn't prove, that the sort of responses you get to proposing the former betray that many people subconsciously believe the latter. To tho…

> I can only really think of two ways of understanding the extreme gender imbalance in these jobs. Either there are systemic discriminatory forces at work, or women are somehow inherently ill-suited for programming jobs (ie. because of cognitive deficiency). A third alternative is that they are not on average as interested in this kind of profession as the average man. That is a perfectly reasonable theory. But of co…

That's not really a theory, you're just deferring the question. Why wouldn't women be interested in this kind of profession? Do women not like comfortable, creative, high-paying jobs with lots of perks?

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#493

Post by sillysaurus2 »

lambda wrote: post #459
hacker789 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We must protect the fairer sex at all costs. This use of "privilege" as a targeted weapon to silence specific demographics has to stop. Women in the western world have always been among the safest, most privileged people on Earth. This entire thread, in fact, has been a shining example of female privilege. No one cares that women soundly outnumber men in university admission, and university graduation, and even high…

I know I shouldn't respond to the troll, but here goes. > This use of "privilege" as a targeted weapon to silence specific demographics has to stop. Sorry, no specific demographic is being "silenced" here. If you think that men are being silenced, well, why are you able to speak? > Women in the western world have always been among the safest, most privileged people on Earth. Always been, hm? So they were privileged w…

You sound fairly threatened and insecure; it sounds like you're worried that women might do better than you at technology, and then the one way you use to make yourself feel secure in yourself may fall away.

Why do you have to make your points while simultaneously being a complete douche about them? Personal attacks on HN, on purpose?

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#494

Post by lambda »

asdasf wrote: post #491
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

No, I am not taking responsibility for an imaginary problem. You don't get to tell the world they have to cater to your delusions. Do you know what I hear about this issue from my wife? Variations on "What alternate reality are these people living in?". The only sexism she has experienced is the sort you are displaying: the "lets fall all over ourselves protecting the delicate ladies from the horrors of nothing" sort…

> No, I am not taking responsibility for an imaginary problem.

Are you claiming that the original authors daughter was imagining her classmates bullying her?

Are you saying that I'm imagining the fact that there are far more men than women in the programming profession?

These aren't "imaginary problems". These are very real problems. Now, there may be some debate about exactly which behavior is problematic; some people have different standards. But you're not going to tell me that bullying someone and telling them to get into the kitchen is not a problem.

> You are making the field off-putting to her, not the evil chauvinist boogeymen she has never seen.

I'm sorry, are you saying that someone who's saying it's bad to push women out of the profession is more off-putting than someone in her class telling her to get into the kitchen and make them a sandwich?

These are not "evil chauvinish boogeymen she has never seen", they are actual bullies in her actual class.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#495

Post by asdasf »

stayhome wrote: post #428
hacker789 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We must protect the fairer sex at all costs. This use of "privilege" as a targeted weapon to silence specific demographics has to stop. Women in the western world have always been among the safest, most privileged people on Earth. This entire thread, in fact, has been a shining example of female privilege. No one cares that women soundly outnumber men in university admission, and university graduation, and even high…

I really can't tell if you're trolling or not. The straw man of "protect the fairer sex" is so frustrating. No one is saying to treat women like brittle creatures who cannot fend for themselves. It hasn't even been 100 years since women were given the right to vote in America, and the amendment was filibustered before it was ratified. It's shocking that there were politicians who believed so strongly that women shoul…

>It's shocking that there were politicians who believed so strongly that women should be second class citizens that they filibustered the bill.

So how do you feel about all the women who opposed it? You do realize that men didn't have the right to vote either right? The right to vote was tied to military service.

>oppressive gender roles, in which females are subservient to males.

That is an opinion, not reality. You could describe men's "oppressive gender role" as being subservient to women. Being forced to work your life away to provide for a woman is no more wonderful than being forced to cook and clean for a man.

>Also want to note: being the safest, and most privileged relative to other places on earth != safe and treated equally

But the discussion is framed as "we have things bad, you men need to fix it", but the "you men" in question are less safe than women, and are also not treated equally.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#496

Post by asdasf »

lambda wrote: post #494
asdasf wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I am not taking responsibility for an imaginary problem. You don't get to tell the world they have to cater to your delusions. Do you know what I hear about this issue from my wife? Variations on "What alternate reality are these people living in?". The only sexism she has experienced is the sort you are displaying: the "lets fall all over ourselves protecting the delicate ladies from the horrors of nothing" sort…

> No, I am not taking responsibility for an imaginary problem. Are you claiming that the original authors daughter was imagining her classmates bullying her? Are you saying that I'm imagining the fact that there are far more men than women in the programming profession? These aren't "imaginary problems". These are very real problems. Now, there may be some debate about exactly which behavior is problematic; some peop…

>Are you claiming that the original authors daughter was imagining her classmates bullying her?

No, I am claiming that the problems the post I replied to was putting forth are imaginary. I am quite aware that bullying is a real problem.

>Are you saying that I'm imagining the fact that there are far more men than women in the programming profession?

No, I am saying that is not an indication of a problem, much less systemic oppression. There is a strong correlation between increased freedom to choose "non-traditional" professions and fewer people choosing them. More women worked "men's jobs" when they were told they were men's jobs than they do now that they are encouraged to seek those jobs.

>But you're not going to tell me that bullying someone and telling them to get into the kitchen is not a problem.

Stop presenting such a ridiculous strawman. You can read the post I replied to. You can see that it is clearly not the article. Your entire response is predicated on ignoring the context of the conversation and repositioning my post as being a response to something completely different.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#497

Post by bcRIPster »

I can speak for this, my daughter has already shunned programming in any capacity. While my wife and I have spent our time encouraging our children to excel at math and sciences, where my two older boys sailed through, my daughter (who used to love math) feels so isolated that half-way through high-school she now is talking about how she sees no value in the knowledge because of the social repercussions of showing math aptitude as a young woman.

This seriously pisses me off.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#498

Post by Dewie »

ForrestN wrote: post #492
Dewie wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can only really think of two ways of understanding the extreme gender imbalance in these jobs. Either there are systemic discriminatory forces at work, or women are somehow inherently ill-suited for programming jobs (ie. because of cognitive deficiency). A third alternative is that they are not on average as interested in this kind of profession as the average man. That is a perfectly reasonable theory. But of co…

That's not really a theory, you're just deferring the question. Why wouldn't women be interested in this kind of profession? Do women not like comfortable, creative, high-paying jobs with lots of perks?

> That's not really a theory, you're just deferring the question.

No, it's still a theory. It might naturally lead to the next question, "why don't they wanna?", but so does a lot of theories/explanations (just ask Socrates).

> Why wouldn't women be interested in this kind of profession? Do women not like comfortable, creative, high-paying jobs with lots of perks?

I don't know, but there could be a lots of reasons, since there are a lot of things other than comfort and money that people consider when they choose a career. Indeed, money is probably relatively unimportant in a more egalitarian, developed society than a society which is less developed and more (gender) unequal: nations with a higher degree of gender equality tend to have a more gender-segregated labour market. Why don't you explain that 'paradox' (it's not really a paradox), with your initial, limited dichotomy?

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#499

Post by lambda »

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #493
lambda wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know I shouldn't respond to the troll, but here goes. > This use of "privilege" as a targeted weapon to silence specific demographics has to stop. Sorry, no specific demographic is being "silenced" here. If you think that men are being silenced, well, why are you able to speak? > Women in the western world have always been among the safest, most privileged people on Earth. Always been, hm? So they were privileged w…

You sound fairly threatened and insecure; it sounds like you're worried that women might do better than you at technology, and then the one way you use to make yourself feel secure in yourself may fall away. Why do you have to make your points while simultaneously being a complete douche about them? Personal attacks on HN, on purpose?

Did you read the grandparent post? Bringing up complete strawmen, making vague censorship claims, making off-topic arguments about "well, men have it tough too in these other cases, so really men are the victims", and so on.

I tried to find some reason to explain why someone would do something like that, and that's the best I could come up with. I was also trying to point out how ridiculous an argument of "stop playing the victim card, look how much of a victim I am" is. Perhaps I went a little beyond what I should have when trying to point out how ridiculous it is, but I'm not really sure how to point that out much more gently.

Perhaps you have a better suggestion for how to deal with such ridiculous, hysterical, off-topic arguments? Perhaps one that doesn't involve calling someone a "complete douche" in the same breath as criticizing personal attacks?

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#500

Post by anigbrowl »

dandrews wrote: post #212
anigbrowl wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while your wife watches DWTS You're part of the problem.

I regretted that as soon as I hit the "reply" button... but really, that's the way it is in my house and I meant it innocently. Bernice was literally watching that show a couple of years ago while I installed the Hercules S/370 emulator and the MVT 21.8F Turnkey system on my Nokia N900. Mainframe on a handheld! I was laughing like a maniac while she wondered what in the world I was doing in my office.

Well, no harm done. but I'd point out that my wife watches talent shows at the same time as doing stuff in Code Academy. I can't figure this out but she grew up in a household where television was almost always on and likes having some background noise (or likes having it focused through the TV, or something).
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