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To my daughter's high school programming teacher

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Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#481

Post by xenophonf »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

I manage a team that includes several women. Not saying completely ignorant stuff like "shut up and make me a sammich" is easy. It's my potential for unconscious chauvinism that worries me a great deal.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#482

Post by IanDrake »

ArtDev wrote: post #467
IanDrake wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for writing this. I was thinking the same thing. Most everyone has had this problem at one point in time. It seems to me that mom needs to teach her daughter to have a thicker skin...which is the EXACT same lesson I got from my parents.

When your kid feels harassed and bullied telling them to just "have thicker skin" is not going to cut it.

Hmmm, I don't remember saying that.

My parents didn't teach me to run to them or to teachers when stuff like this happens. They taught me how to deal with it myself.

Treating high schoolers like they're helpless kids might be fashionable now, but it might not seam as wise when they're 30 and living at home.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#483

Post by vdaniuk »

VladRussian2 wrote: post #334
nl wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hga is female. (Actually I don't know hga's gender, but wow - I have never seen an example of gender stereotyping as explicit as that on HN, and in a discussion about sexism in programming too. I'm really hoping your comment was supposed to be ironic)

>I have never seen an example of gender stereotyping as explicit as that on HN does gender stereotyping manifests an intellectual failure on the part of the one expressing the stereotypes? If yes, does such intellectual failure is localized, say to the area of percepting and understanding gender relations in the industry, or is it a system-wide failure of the intellect of the stereotyping (i.e. something like a habit…

These are actually good questions.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#484

Post by sillysaurus2 »

ArtDev wrote: post #467
IanDrake wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for writing this. I was thinking the same thing. Most everyone has had this problem at one point in time. It seems to me that mom needs to teach her daughter to have a thicker skin...which is the EXACT same lesson I got from my parents.

When your kid feels harassed and bullied telling them to just "have thicker skin" is not going to cut it.

You should give an example of what would cut it.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#485

Post by orclev »

wpietri wrote: post #479
orclev wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the thing, every time someone does something misogynistic that's even remotely connected to tech in any way we get a storm of "stop the rampant misogyny in tech" rants and comments, never a "stop the rampant misogyny in the USA/UK/Western World/Whatever". I don't see this as a tech problem, and blaming the tech sector for it is a cop-out. If there genuinely is a larger problem with society as a whole, that…

The reason we people in tech are trying to stop discrimination in tech is that -- surprise -- we work in tech. Just because people around the world litter is no reason not for me to pick up trash on my street. Also, I believe it is specifically a tech problem. Medicine and law are approaching gender balanced. Tech, though, has been getting worse over the decades.

Two things. First, it's fine to try to stop discrimination in tech in the general sense, but it shouldn't be framed as a problem specifically with tech, doing so narrows the focus to the point at which it can't actually address the general problem only very specific limited instances. Secondly, you're confusing two different issues, the gender imbalance in tech, and gender based discrimination in tech. While it's true there is a gender imbalance in tech, I do not accept that it's being caused by gender discrimination in tech. Yes, discrimination does sometimes occur, however I don't believe it's much more prevalent in tech than it is in any other industry. The gender imbalance and media stereotypes around tech have an amplifying effect, not to mention being a significant minority in any situation tends to lead to being singled out and marginalized (human nature). If you want to fix tech, then fix the media stereotypes and more importantly the poor quality of tech education in schools, the rest will work itself out as the gender imbalance is equalized. As for the more general problem on misogyny in all parts of life, I'm not sure how best to fix that, biggots of all kinds exist everywhere, I do my best to avoid them whenever possible (in the rare cases where I'm actually in charge of them I'd set them straight with what's acceptable, but that rarely happens).

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#486

Post by mncolinlee »

jeltz wrote: post #453
mncolinlee wrote: post #408

I spent a year as a high school computer science teacher back when the AP exam was in C++ and I had one young woman in my classroom. The OP's comments are reasonable as a parent, but like many she doesn't properly comprehend the difficulties encountered by a modern day teacher. When I was teaching class, I had to contend with numerous learning obstacles and then had to leave after class for my other full-time program…

> The one salient point of the piece was the fact the teacher did not respond properly after the harassment occurred. We can all agree on that. I agree with that if it is true, but the email is so sparse in details about the events so we have no idea if the teacher even was present when this happened.

I think that's a fair point. Maybe I read into the OP's e-mail that she informed the teacher about it soon after it happened.

I certainly dealt with having a student whose father had died that semester and his mother expected me to simply already know about the death and what he was dealing with and to warn her before his grades slipped. Sometimes parents expect teachers to have ESP. I don't blame parents for a reasonable emotional state.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#487

Post by surge »

jessedhillon wrote: post #41
bangbang wrote: post #9

I cringe reading this. Since when it is alright to tell teachers how to do their job in bullet pointed letters? * Be an adult and talk about any issues, complements or concerns during the class. * Talk with them in person or on the phone. * If you wish, post to your blog after the issues have been resolved. To put a global context on the situation should be supported with evidence as it pertains to life as a women in…

One time in college, I went to a busy ice cream restaurant with some friends of mine (Fenton's in Emeryville). After entering, we saw there was just one single open table, so we went and put our jackets down on it and then got into line. After getting our ice cream we went back to the table only to find our jackets gone and some fat people sitting there, eating ice cream with their fat kids. When I asked where our ja…

One, there was one open table, they had purchased their ice cream and were entitled to a table before you do. You don't "call shotgun" on tables. So what, the family who has their ice cream has to stand now while you wait in line (during which time another table may clear by then that you can sit at).

Your rules are just as arbitrary and inconsiderate. Let the people who got their first and need to eat their food sit first, there is no point in having an empty table go to waste while you wait in line.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#488

Post by asdasf »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #410
asdasf wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know what it was like for the only guy in home ec? It is not a case of sexism, it has nothing to do with programmers (likely none of the students would identify with programmers at all). It is just normal bullying. The same kind that teenagers who are in a minority of some kind deal with all the time. Yes, it needs to be addressed. But pretending it is some other problem isn't going to help it be addressed.

I really have a hard time believing that anyone can think someone who says "make me a sandwich" isn't making a sexist remark. Don't get me wrong, I agree that in some contexts it can be given and received as a joke, but it is absolutely sexist. Just because males may receive gender-based outcasting in a home-ec class does not make that also sexist (are they harassing him to go bring her home a paycheck???), nor does…

Nobody said the original case is OK. In fact, knowing in advance someone would advance that strawman, I preemptively addressed it in the post you replied to. I stated that it is bullying, not sexism. If you try to solve bullying by addressing sexism, you will fail.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#489

Post by unlogic »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

I asked my absolutely brilliant coed what does she thinks about the whole "sexism in tech" thing. She told me to read less Hacker News and work on my thesis.

So I'll just leave this bingo in case you got bored in this thread: http://bit.ly/16i7WAm

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#490

Post by mcgwiz »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

Agreed. But why are things the way they are and how do we progress from there?

In my experience, a lot of the difficulty in comprehending/accepting that women experience the industry so differently than men is that many men either A) over-generalize from an exceptional interaction, or B) follow those that have over-generalized. By "A" I mean that men can rely on confirmation bias to cement their impression of the female experience based on a few choice interactions. For example, confirmation bias can allow a random chat with a well-adjusted, confident woman who appears impervious to tech sexism can dispel for many years any notion in that man's mind that sexism exists in the industry. Thereafter, contradictory signals of other women can themselves be dismissed as exceptions, and because of cognitive dissonance, can actually reinforce his misconception.

By "B" I mean that many men have no relevant direct interactions with women (given their low numbers) and may follow the lead of the people with whom they associate, who are by definition men. Any confirmation bias of those men then spreads to them.

In addressing this, what is not often recognized is that individual women do have unique experiences. They are affected to varying degrees and in various ways by prejudism and ostracization. As a male, rather than tip-toe around or ignore the issue with a female colleague, I've found the best hueristic for recognizing your potential participation in a prejudicial environment is to earnestly sense/inquire the nature of her past experience. (You may also share your own experiences of prejudism, if any.) By opening such a dialogue, you establish a common foundation and framework for maximizing the team and progressing the industry.

IMHO, focusing on the direct, open, and individual treatment of interpersonal relationships (and moving away from the one-experience-fits-all mentality, which lacks common sense and is susceptible to confirmation bias) is an important next step for evolving relations between social groups in general.

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