To my daughter's high school programming teacher • Hacker News Board

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#441

Post by hnal943 » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 3:58 PM UTC

hfern wrote: post #24

bangbang wrote: post #9

I cringe reading this. Since when it is alright to tell teachers how to do their job in bullet pointed letters? * Be an adult and talk about any issues, complements or concerns during the class. * Talk with them in person or on the phone. * If you wish, post to your blog after the issues have been resolved. To put a global context on the situation should be supported with evidence as it pertains to life as a women in…

> While I was attending SC '12 in Salt Lake City last November, my daughter emailed to tell me that the boys in her class were harassing her. "They told me to get in the kitchen and make them sandwiches," she said. Even if you think the parent is overstepping their bounds here, I would rather a parent be too concerned as oppose to not being concerned at all. Double so that he is in the tech sector while we are facing…

It's not whether the author is going too far as a parent, but that that she is not handling the situation appropriately. She showed bad faith by not ever actually talking to the teacher. She sat and accumulated complaints about this class only to blast the teacher on the internet after the fact. That's not productive and it betrays intentions other than helping her daughter succeed.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#442

Post by Tycho » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 3:59 PM UTC

nollidge wrote: post #433

etherael wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never, but seriously as soon as I hear typical combinations of the words white male cis privilege I instantly write off the person using it as hopelessly deluded. These are dog whistles for social justice warrior ideologies and everything they imply. Use "different perspective" if that's what you're trying to put across, and if it's not and you really believe the whole privilege meme as something more than that, that…

What the fuck is so "horrendously offensive" about the obvious truth that some classes of people have advantages that others don't?

THe words privilege and advantage aren't really interchangeable.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#443

Post by hnal943 » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 4:00 PM UTC

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #236

jessedhillon wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh. Just curious, where's the line on this? Like, what things is she allowed to attempt to draw public attention to, and what things should she just counsel her daughter to learn to live with, and accept as a part of life? How should a person know what sorts of circumstances belong on which side of that line? Are these written in a book somewhere that I missed?

I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that if you're female and you want to speak up about feeling belittled or harassed, the problem is in you, and we will gladly tell you that you need to stop bringing this subject up because we are so darn tired of hearing people like you try to bring us down. If, however, you are male and you are feeling belittled or harassed, we're pretty interested in having a serious discus…

When does any male get an audience for whining? If anything there is a huge social stigma against men complaining about anything because of their "privilege."

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#444

Post by hnal943 » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 4:03 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #116

bangbang wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When this child grows up, there will be no parent to write a blog post. My point being, we all have to learn to navigate this difficult world. Stern letters from mom eventually have to stop.

When? Is it never ok to defend your kid? Or is there an age cutoff? Because it seems to me one of the primary functions of a parent, right alongside teaching them to make it in the world.

It needs to decrease over time. This girl is at the end of her high school experience, she should be handling social interactions with her peers on her own.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#445

Post by swamp40 » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 4:05 PM UTC

EdgarVerona wrote: post #284

I've got a couple of problems with the tone and where the finger is pointed in this article, though I sympathize with her plight. 1) I feel like attacking the teacher is unfair. There is a much more significant root cause that should be addressed, and the teacher's inability to detect her bullying is merely a symptom of that root cause. Bullying is terrible - I experienced that myself for alternative reasons in Middl…

Teachers are the leaders of the classrooms.

Same as with all leaders anywhere, in addition to their main goals (teaching the material, sailing a ship, etc.), they must maintain discipline and right any wrongs.

If anything goes wrong, they are the ones ultimately responsible.

It is not fair, but being a good teacher requires more than just the ability to teach a specific subject.

These qualities can be taught, and this woman's letter contains some good insights for the teacher.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#446

Post by pzuraq » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 4:06 PM UTC

etherael wrote: post #404

lr wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point does it become ok to harass and threaten this "privileged" group of people?

Never, but seriously as soon as I hear typical combinations of the words white male cis privilege I instantly write off the person using it as hopelessly deluded. These are dog whistles for social justice warrior ideologies and everything they imply. Use "different perspective" if that's what you're trying to put across, and if it's not and you really believe the whole privilege meme as something more than that, that…

I don't even...

Would you say that black people in America have it harder than white people, perhaps in some places more so than others? If so you accept that people are treated differently based on externalities. People are treated unfairly. People are mocked, hurt, threatened, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

And you want to tell me that it offends you when they say some people have privilege?

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#447

Post by mathattack » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 4:07 PM UTC

Wizecoder wrote: post #438

mathattack wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one salient point of the piece was the fact the teacher did not respond properly after the harassment occurred. We can all agree on that. This is the key. People don't expect teachers to control what comes out of the mouths of their students. They can't stop the initial bullying from happening. What teachers can do is react once it happens. Edited to remove: "It sounds like the OP went out of her way to help the…

Wait, how did she help the teacher turn it into a 'teaching moment'? What I got from it is that neither of them contacted the teacher at all about any of this, and then expected him to be able to spot the issue and understand that it was a problem with his class rather than an issue of burnout or other normal teenager problems (I doubt the boys in the class harassed her in front of him). My guess is that he was actua…

I'm sorry - I misread the following quote as the OP offering suggestions to the teacher to turn it into a teaching moment. Upon a second reading I realize that your interpretation is correct, they didn't raise it to the teacher. I'll correct my prior note.

I consulted with friends — female developers — and talked to my daughter about how to handle the situation in class. I suggested that she talk to you. I offered to talk to you. I offered to come talk to the class. I offered to send one of my male friends, perhaps a well-known local programmer, to go talk to the class.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#448

Post by pflats » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 4:07 PM UTC

yeukhon wrote: post #200

pflats wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C++ was a short run, something like '99-'03. It was Pascal beforehand and Java afterwards. There's no AB course any more either. It's just one course, the equivalent of the old A.

When did the whole VB thing come to the table? Probably left over from the old days in intro to cs in undergraduate?

I imagine VB classes came for the most part in the mid to late 90s where it made GUI applications nice and easy. Compared to console applications and Logo, it was a nice way to give a first-time programmer a more fulfilling experience.

I taught at a school with a VB 6.0 curriculum at the end of the last decade. The (veteran) teacher just continued using his old materials; he was a math teacher with some CS experience. He kept it because budgets were tight, everything ran snappily, and new computers and textbooks are expensive.

As long as a teacher is teaching programming fundamentals, it really doesn't matter (in the long run, educationally) what a student's first language is. They'll get it. Better to go with something that the teacher's good at and that interests the students.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#449

Post by weland » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 4:09 PM UTC

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

I tend to agree with the points you are making -- I certainly don't mean to derail this by a straw man argument, like it already happened above. But I think the importance of this particular incident is... well, somewhat overstated. Because:

> So, you see, I was all too familiar with what my daughter was going through, but I was unprepared for the harassment to start in high school, in her programming class.

Really? High school?

I went to high school, too. I distinctly remember how everyone was calling everyone else whatever they could. I've been called a faggot, a lunatic, a drug-addict, a bitch, a teacher's pet, a limp dick and a long list of other things, and I've been the target of a whole bunch of male stereotypes.

Like, you know, every fucking teenager on the planet. I cracked sexist jokes with other dudes -- hell, I cracked sexist jokes with girls -- and I've been the target of sexist jokes, too. Some of them were mean, some of them were in good spirit. Hell, at one point I was the only dude in a Latin class. Few things are more awesome than having the openly lesbian, short-haired colleague asking you whether you'd like to shine her boots and fetch her paper later (particularly after addressing you with "hey sissy" rather than your name).

But what the hell, that's what you do when you're a teenagers. We were a bunch of stupid fucks whose most important achievement in life was learning how to play the intro to Stairway to Heaven or trying to fuck while dead drunk. We insulted each other with no reason. Our behaviour was definitely unprofessional, because we went to school, not to work.

Seriously, if we're going to get upset and bring out the discrimination pitchforks every time a teenager says something mean to another teenager, we're going to be really busy. People are going to be mean to each other, particularly those who don't have this privilege of sheltered education.

I honestly sympathize with this young girl. Humour and sexist jokes apart, I had my share of insults and bullying because of a somewhat visible physical defect (one of my eyes isn't exactly agile). But being a good parent is not a good way to deal with this, no matter how much we'd like that, because it depends on other people being good parents, too.

My folks were awesome. Both were cultivated fellows, and my father was in the army and taught me how to punch. I got through school without traumas related to these experience using nothing but wits and kickboxing.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#450

Post by rthomas6 » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 4:19 PM UTC

hacker789 wrote: post #383

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

We must protect the fairer sex at all costs. This use of "privilege" as a targeted weapon to silence specific demographics has to stop. Women in the western world have always been among the safest, most privileged people on Earth. This entire thread, in fact, has been a shining example of female privilege. No one cares that women soundly outnumber men in university admission, and university graduation, and even high…

ALL of your comments are about men's rights. I think I should make some writeup for responses to MRAs, similar to how you have done for responses to feminist sentiments, because I think I understand the worldview and bought into it myself for a long time. Of course the response might not be perfect this time around, but I can perfect it incrementally.

The first thing that is crucial to understand is that feminism itself is not the enemy. In fact, intelligent feminists should care about the problems you list. I'm not saying they do, but they should, because feminism isn't anti-men, it's anti gender roles. This means that problems like men being pressured to bury their emotions, or men not getting proper mental health care, or men not being taken seriously when they are raped, are all things that feminism is supposed to be fighting against. The fact that our society often ignores these problems is not because of feminism, it's because of sexism. Feminists, often do ignore problems like this with men, and those feminists are either ignorant or bigoted, because sexist oppression caused by society to men, and sexist oppression caused by society to women, have the same root and are part of the same problem that feminism is trying to fix. This is not a fringe view of feminism. This is the normal view.

The second thing that is crucial to understand is that the caricature of sexist tumblr-warrior "feminists" (that do indeed exist) are a distraction. The fact that people like this are taken seriously probably bothers me as much as it bothers you. However, these people are misrepresenting feminism. They do not say what feminism is supposed to represent. You can think of them as the crazy bigoted Christians or Muslims that are technically part of the same group, but do not represent the whole.

Finally, you have to realize that gender roles and sexism are oppressing men and women. I think the reason so many feminists react badly to men's rights advocates is because they marginalize women's problems while promoting men's. In truth I think this is just a reaction from seeing feminist groups do the reverse. Really, both are a problem. Just because one is a problem doesn't make another problem any more or less important. So instead of saying "This is ridiculous to be worrying about when much worse is happening to men and nobody cares," try saying, "This is an important problem," and separately, "These other things are happening to men and nobody cares."