To my daughter's high school programming teacher • Hacker News Board

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#401

Post by npsimons » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:53 PM UTC

astrogirl wrote: post #368

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

So, you're saying that women need special treatment as the more delicately nurtured sex? I completely disagree. The tech environment is what it is, and I don't want to be treated differently than my male co-workers. Also, I've never seen anything resembling a "grotesque pastiche of misogyny and bullying" in my 17 years of working as a programmer or systems analyst.

Have your male coworkers ever been threatened with rape? Have they ever been told to get back in the kitchen and make a sandwich?

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#402

Post by hackinthebochs » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:53 PM UTC

hacker789 wrote: post #383

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

We must protect the fairer sex at all costs. This use of "privilege" as a targeted weapon to silence specific demographics has to stop. Women in the western world have always been among the safest, most privileged people on Earth. This entire thread, in fact, has been a shining example of female privilege. No one cares that women soundly outnumber men in university admission, and university graduation, and even high…

One issue has nothing to do with the other. Why is it when some minority group (in this context women) tries to address the causes of their underrepresentation there are always people that responds with some version of: "you already have it soooo good why can't you just be happy". I see this same pattern when it comes to issues regarding race/gender/sex orientation. Nothing less than full equality will ever be acceptable.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those people that sees that female representation in tech isn't 50% therefore men must be at fault. But here is a clear example of horrible sex discrimination and here you come trotting out the "get over it--you already have it good" arguments.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#403

Post by acjohnson55 » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:54 PM UTC

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

Well said.

Who here has never been someplace and felt like they didn't belong? Maybe you were the only person of your ethnicity at some event and you stuck out like a sore thumb. Maybe everyone had their inside jokes and familiarities you didn't know about. Maybe occasionally, people made in unambiguously clear that you weren't welcome, by being cold or outright hostile. This is what it feels like for many women in the tech world.

I really feel like this comes down not so much to an inability to comprehend and empathize, but more so to a vested interest of deniers in the status quo. More outsiders means people on the inside have to let go of their insularity, and moreover, compete with an influx of people who bring in diverse skillsets and viewpoints. Our supposedly meritocratic software world is actually anything but. I believe Chris Hayes nails it with his Iron Law of Meritocracy, summarized here [1].

[1] http://letstalkbooksandpolitics.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-iro...

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#404

Post by etherael » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:55 PM UTC

lr wrote: post #389

hacker789 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We must protect the fairer sex at all costs. This use of "privilege" as a targeted weapon to silence specific demographics has to stop. Women in the western world have always been among the safest, most privileged people on Earth. This entire thread, in fact, has been a shining example of female privilege. No one cares that women soundly outnumber men in university admission, and university graduation, and even high…

At what point does it become ok to harass and threaten this "privileged" group of people?

Never, but seriously as soon as I hear typical combinations of the words white male cis privilege I instantly write off the person using it as hopelessly deluded. These are dog whistles for social justice warrior ideologies and everything they imply.

Use "different perspective" if that's what you're trying to put across, and if it's not and you really believe the whole privilege meme as something more than that, that's exactly why I write you off.

Either way it means either you couldn't be bothered to figure out an effective way to convey a simple core idea without being horrendously offensive, or you actually don't have a clue what you are talking about.

This article was mostly excellent because it primarily avoided the classic persecution complexes that are almost par for the course in such things, to have the top comment here raving about privilege does the article an enormous disservice.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#405

Post by RyanMcGreal » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:56 PM UTC

npsimons wrote: post #399

hacker789 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We must protect the fairer sex at all costs. This use of "privilege" as a targeted weapon to silence specific demographics has to stop. Women in the western world have always been among the safest, most privileged people on Earth. This entire thread, in fact, has been a shining example of female privilege. No one cares that women soundly outnumber men in university admission, and university graduation, and even high…

We must protect the fairer sex at all costs. Where, exactly, did you find this quote? Because I can't find it in the OP, or the post you are replying to. I'd hate to think you might have pulled a strawman so blatantly out of thin air . . . Oh, and thanks for demonstrating exactly the points the GP was trying to make.

It is a straightforward strawman. Nowhere to I state or even hint that I consider women to be somehow more delicate or otherwise inferior to men. The point I'm making is that what women experience in this industry is vastly different from what men experience, and far too many men still refuse to acknowledge this (or indeed, actively defend and perpetuate it).

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#406

Post by hnal943 » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:56 PM UTC

sev wrote: post #176

mathattack wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two topics here, and the more important one is getting neglected. Almost by definition of being on this website, all of us are well advanced of our pre-college computer science teachers. My first was actually a chemistry teacher. My second was biology. One had me doing tech support in junior high. It wasn't until the AP class that I found one who could teach me. But teachers using outdated technology isn't…

Although I agree completely, that's a very high expectation of teachers (pre-college) for the amount they get paid.

That's a very high expectation of teachers, full stop. What are they supposed to do? They only have influence over these people for an hour a day, which is the time they are supposed to be teaching the subject.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#407

Post by CurtMonash » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:56 PM UTC

orclev wrote: post #393

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

This is a high school class, not the tech industry. You can't blame the tech industry when a bunch of highschoolers act like idiots just because the class they did it in happened to be a programming class. If they had done the same thing in a Algebra class would you be writing a rant about how we need to fix the rampant misogyny in math?

If it happened frequently enough, sure.

I went to a high school where the two calculus teachers were both female. I also went to a math PhD program where a professor -- specifically George Mackey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mackey -- wondered openly as to whether women could do top-level mathematics. In fairness to him, the women in that era were still few and below average, and one even had the temerity to whine about discrimination when the real problem was that she wasn't particularly smart or hardworking.

Moral: Even if you don't see bigotry in YOUR part of a group, don't assume it isn't common elsewhere.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#408

Post by mncolinlee » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:57 PM UTC

I spent a year as a high school computer science teacher back when the AP exam was in C++ and I had one young woman in my classroom. The OP's comments are reasonable as a parent, but like many she doesn't properly comprehend the difficulties encountered by a modern day teacher.

When I was teaching class, I had to contend with numerous learning obstacles and then had to leave after class for my other full-time programming job. The idea that I could preempt kids from saying a comment is something only a parent could believe. In the minds of high school students, policies were made to be tested.

The OP further wants to make young women into white elephants by reminding them how rare they are on the first day of class. I had a far more interesting and engaging introduction to algorithms on the first day of my class using paper airplane folding instructions as an example of how literally computers interpreted your instructions. The students loved it.

The one salient point of the piece was the fact the teacher did not respond properly after the harassment occurred. We can all agree on that.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#409

Post by pekru » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:59 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #333

eru wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a gender issue in the balances of sexes as reported in the article. I don't know how American schools work, so I can't comment on your question.

What about an all-girls school? It will be interesting to see how many students there opt for Programming subjects. Obviously there can't be male domination there, because boys are absent.

Try organizing a seminar on programming in some womens only college. Not more than a handful would land up.

Bangalore/Chennai/India, same story throughout.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#410

Post by hackinthebochs » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 3:02 PM UTC

asdasf wrote: post #396

lsiebert wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bullying took a sexist form. I don't care why, no female should ever be told they need to go to the kitchen and make sandwiches for the guys in a programming class. That's behavior that should be stopped, or preferably never happen. The expectation should have been set that it will not happen, that the cool programmers don't discriminate and are respectful of each other as individuals.

Do you know what it was like for the only guy in home ec? It is not a case of sexism, it has nothing to do with programmers (likely none of the students would identify with programmers at all). It is just normal bullying. The same kind that teenagers who are in a minority of some kind deal with all the time. Yes, it needs to be addressed. But pretending it is some other problem isn't going to help it be addressed.

I really have a hard time believing that anyone can think someone who says "make me a sandwich" isn't making a sexist remark. Don't get me wrong, I agree that in some contexts it can be given and received as a joke, but it is absolutely sexist.

Just because males may receive gender-based outcasting in a home-ec class does not make that also sexist (are they harassing him to go bring her home a paycheck???), nor does it make the original case OK to disregard as "kids being kids".