To my daughter's high school programming teacher • Hacker News Board

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#381

Post by Tichy » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:10 PM UTC

6d0debc071 wrote: post #335

Tichy wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know how it feels if people dissociate from you in high school becasuse you seem nerdy? It's such a joke that feminists now try to turn that on the head and claim those nerds prevented them from programming for sexist reasons. No, those nerds did not become the bullies they hated in high school. You are still the bullies you were in high school, you just found new excuses (then: they seem nerdy, now: they are sex…

These girls weren't even in school when you were getting bullied, many of them weren't even alive. The 'nerds' in school weren't in school at the time, and probably weren't even alive. There is no group of feminists that bullied nerds by disassociating with them (beyond what is acceptable in just not talking to people who don't share your interests) in this story 'claiming the nerds prevented them from programming fo…

I was responding to a comment, not the article. Perhaps you should read the comment before judging my reply. As for the article here, I am not yet convinced her ordeal was really as bad as the mum-with-an-agenda writer describes it. Impossible to know without knowing more context.

Nevertheless I am always opposed to bullying, but unfortunately sometimes we have to deal with it. Calling for a nanny state to work things out for us is not always a workable solution.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#382

Post by acjohnson55 » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:10 PM UTC

Tloewald wrote: post #330

irahul wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure they're teaching VB simply because that's what they have experience with, probably making them the most experienced programmer on staff at the school. VB is a fine language to get children interested in programming. Personally, I know many people who weren't able to grasp programming via C but were pretty excited about VB's gui designer and easy database connectivity. Most of the introduction to VB didn't…

I think that if I were going to teach programming to high school kids I'd show them the console in Chrome / Safari, because it's something they all have easy access to (I assume we're talking about a first world country, right). VB seems to me to be a poor choice because it doesn't intersect with the kids' lives. They likely won't go home and build VB apps (on their Macs...) The console is like lifting the curtain an…

I totally agree. But most high school computer teachers simply aren't that sophisticated. At the very least, the poor guy would need something like Dev Bootcamp or an intensive General Assembly course to even scratch the surface of modern software development. Who's paying for that? If this guy actually had modern software development skills, he's have the option of getting twice the pay of his current job of being a teacher/programmer/recruiter/promoter/psychiatrist/policeman/administrator/coach (possibly)/network admin (possibly)/ ... ad infinitum, and with a less critical audience of parents, students, and administrators.

Our disjointed education system has done a pretty crappy job of anticipating the software revolution and gearing up for it. I mean think about it, even in higher ed, software development/engineering as a discipline separate from computer science and computer engineering is not even 10 years old in many places. At most ed schools, software education is just a component of overall tech ed, if it's available at all, and specializing in tech ed is a good way to make yourself expendable by not being certified in a "core" subject.

And with most K-12 curriculum priorities being set by individual local districts and schools, it seems hardly probable that administrators, overburdened as they are trying to increase test scores in core subjects, are going be able to sense and react to long-term economic trends by beefing up their software instructional staffs.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#383

Post by hacker789 » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:13 PM UTC

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

We must protect the fairer sex at all costs.

This use of "privilege" as a targeted weapon to silence specific demographics has to stop.

Women in the western world have always been among the safest, most privileged people on Earth. This entire thread, in fact, has been a shining example of female privilege.

No one cares that women soundly outnumber men in university admission, and university graduation, and even high school graduation. No one cares that young women without children (i.e. the majority) earn more money their male counterparts. Heck, no one cares that it is men who overwhelmingly make up the bottom of society.

Instead, we're having a collective anxiety attack because a hyper-privileged white woman is upset that her hyper-privileged white daughter might have had her feelings hurt in high school. This is surreal.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#384

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:26 PM UTC

astrogirl wrote: post #368

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

So, you're saying that women need special treatment as the more delicately nurtured sex? I completely disagree. The tech environment is what it is, and I don't want to be treated differently than my male co-workers. Also, I've never seen anything resembling a "grotesque pastiche of misogyny and bullying" in my 17 years of working as a programmer or systems analyst.

[deleted]

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#385

Post by cnlwsu » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:27 PM UTC

grannyg00se wrote: post #231

Didn't everyone grow up facing some kind of regular harassment in high school? I expected things to take a serious turn for the worse in this story and it actually doesn't seem all that bad. A mother is upset that her daughter was slightly harassed. In one class. In her entire high school experience. Obviously it doesn't make it okay just because many people have faced worse, but dragging the teacher through the mud…

First off I would expect a parent who sees their children suffer to lash out at someone when they have no way of controlling it. That doesnt mean it goes without merit though.

If a child is bullied in PE to where every day he just tries to curl in a corner and try not be noticed not only does he not get anything out of the class it can alter the childs desire of becoming an active participant in sports. I think you can draw a lot of correlations between that and this.

If we want to avoid and undo segregation between the sexes in our field having them attacked for it at a young age and have the idea indoctrinated in them that computer science is not for them is something that needs to be prevented. The only people really with the ability to do so in this scenario is the teacher and parents of the other children. The teacher is the single =individual= with the most ability to affect the lives of the children and although he shouldn't be held accountable he should try to be more attentive to prevent the bullying or at least try to make the class more engaging and fun.

She was pretty patronizing and mean, but I associate that with her frustration and anger with her lack of control. In her shoes I would probably do the same.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#386

Post by newsreader » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:29 PM UTC

frozenport wrote: post #244

flylib wrote: post #190

not sure why your criticizing Visual Basic, it is a good language for Intro HS courses

Not in the US, where Java is required for the Advanced Placement exam in computer science.

Are you serious? You want a HS teacher to teach Java?

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#387

Post by niuzeta » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:31 PM UTC

discostrings wrote: post #162

jessedhillon wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One time in college, I went to a busy ice cream restaurant with some friends of mine (Fenton's in Emeryville). After entering, we saw there was just one single open table, so we went and put our jackets down on it and then got into line. After getting our ice cream we went back to the table only to find our jackets gone and some fat people sitting there, eating ice cream with their fat kids. When I asked where our ja…

> After getting our ice cream we went back to the table only to find our jackets gone and some fat people sitting there, eating ice cream with their fat kids. > When I asked where our jackets were, a man, presumably the father of the obese family, told us that there were "some jackets" on the table but that they had the security guard come and clear them. Is it just me, or is this comment really absurd, off-topic, an…

> Normally I'd just move on and assume others were offended as well, but this is somehow the highest voted reply...

And this reply is the highest voted reply to the offending reply, including mine.

Just throwing this on the table...

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#388

Post by zekenie » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:33 PM UTC

Wonder what the response from the teacher was...

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#389

Post by lr » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:35 PM UTC

hacker789 wrote: post #383

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #353

The entitled and largely unconscious male privilege in most of these HN comments is pretty hard to stomach against the large and steadily-accumulating picture of just how very different this industry presents itself to men and to women. Just because you don't directly experience or see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you haven't been (consciously) chauvinistic to a woman doesn't mean women don't experi…

We must protect the fairer sex at all costs. This use of "privilege" as a targeted weapon to silence specific demographics has to stop. Women in the western world have always been among the safest, most privileged people on Earth. This entire thread, in fact, has been a shining example of female privilege. No one cares that women soundly outnumber men in university admission, and university graduation, and even high…

At what point does it become ok to harass and threaten this "privileged" group of people?

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#390

Post by cbp » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:36 PM UTC

I had a pretty bad experience in highschool (and elementary school) because of a small deformity on my face that I was born with. That didn't make me hate programming because I was getting bullied on programming classes. In fact it made me love it more because it doesn't have to be a stupid social activity. It did make me hate school up to the point that I got "expelled" from college for skipping classes. If the author is so concerned with her daughter being pulled away from a profession that she claims to like then work harder at home. Or you know, not assume that her daughter is an impressionable idiot and let her choose whatever she wants.