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To my daughter's high school programming teacher

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Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#281
post #60

So, was this article about the student's experience or the mother's? Because it reads like it's about the mother. The guys in class suggested that their peer go make a sandwich. That's the only accusation actually made against the class and the teacher. While I don't endorse such teasing, it's certainly in no way specific to computer programming, and it's not anything like the intensity one would expect when trolls f…

> Minority entities will be teased practically any time they exist, regardless of sector or age, and they need to be taught to handle it well. Yeah? So this high school programming class isn't so much a programming class as a crash course in coping mechanisms for gender-based harassment? Please. It's the educator's job to create a safe space for, you know, education--for every student in the class, not just the privi…

Seriously, you can get fired for making the sandwhich joke? Sorry, but the US is really fucked up.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#282
post #256

I'm feeling sorry for the daughter. The poster is hard to take seriously, one mention of the harassment ("sandwiches"), at least three times he mentions "Visual Basic? Seriously??". He seems more concerned about language wars actually. So many people confusing programming and programming languages - the act and the medium. On top the "(violence and rape references)" that had nothing to do with the incident of the hea…

> at least three times he mentions SHE.

Thanks. The gender of a poster seems very important to you. It's not important to me.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#283
post #265

I'm feeling sorry for the daughter. The poster is hard to take seriously, one mention of the harassment ("sandwiches"), at least three times he mentions "Visual Basic? Seriously??". He seems more concerned about language wars actually. So many people confusing programming and programming languages - the act and the medium. On top the "(violence and rape references)" that had nothing to do with the incident of the hea…

Your post is the one that's hard to take seriously given that you continuously to refer to the poster as "he". Near the end of the article, she writes: "I'm a single mother working in tech publishing — believe me, I get it". My guess is you barely read it.

Thanks. Sorry for attributing the wrong gender to the poster.

Yes, I've tried to read the parts relevant to the headline because that was the reason for me to follow the link and skip the parts that described something else from the link bait headline.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#284
I've got a couple of problems with the tone and where the finger is pointed in this article, though I sympathize with her plight.

1) I feel like attacking the teacher is unfair. There is a much more significant root cause that should be addressed, and the teacher's inability to detect her bullying is merely a symptom of that root cause.

Bullying is terrible - I experienced that myself for alternative reasons in Middle/High School - and indeed, inexcusable. Little kids can be assholes, and I do hope that teachers get better at recognizing when kids are getting picked on... but it's a lot to ask when they're strained with multiple classrooms of students that they have to teach. With classroom sizes getting larger, it becomes a laughable proposal to tell them to "pay attention" or "check in" with individual students. These teachers are dealing with potentially hundreds of students every day.

If you want to attack the real problem, attack the fact that teaching is considered and compensated as a "second class career," and thus causes the best and brightest to avoid it. Attack the low pay that teachers receive, the low respect in their community, and in particular the low budgets for public schools brought about by the continual demand for lower taxes. If schools got the budgets to hire good teachers and (most importantly) give them significantly smaller classroom sizes, they could do the kind of one-on-one mentoring proposed: and that would diminish the core problem significantly.

Let's kill the root of the problem rather than blaming the already stressed out teacher at the tail end of said problem. This is a problem we can FIX as a society, if we can recognize that it's worth putting money into our community to solve the problem. This is a solvable problem, made difficult only by the fact that we refuse to give public school systems the funding that they need to sufficiently address it.

2) Far less important in the grand scheme of things, but I feel like people (including this author) belittle Visual Basic unfairly.

It's a great teaching language, and the simplicity of its syntax is helpful for situations like high school where the majority of students don't even want to be there, much less programming. The author's daughter is enthusiastic, and that's great - I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of that class had absolutely no interest in being there. It's unfortunate, but true - and teaching a straightforward language can at least make the barrier to entry and the remote chance of getting through to some of these students just a bit less remote.

Yeah, it's not going to be something that she'll likely run into in the real world - well, maybe, depending on the industry - but teaching programming in high school is about attempting to break through the oversized wall that is general student apathy. You want to teach an apathetic kid Objective-C so that they can make iPhone apps? Nope. You need something simple - something that will hopefully be simple enough that they won't feel like they're struggling against it. Is it sad that kids are so apathetic? Sure, but wishing they weren't isn't going to make it better. So you give them a softball intro, and hope they feel empowered enough with it to start actually caring about it. Or for that matter, about something, anything.

This teacher also may have been teaching it because it's all they know. High Schools seldom (ever in the public system in America?) have the budget to hire a Computer Science teacher. This person was probably recruited as the only teacher in a related department who happened to know some kind of programming offhand.

Lastly in the defense of Visual Basic, it provides a vast wealth of easy-to-use, easy-to-install, well-documented libraries that perform what (to lay people) seem to be magic. Not only is it easy to learn, but these libraries can be leveraged to very quickly make programs that feel like they're doing something interesting with minimal resistance or struggling against the tools. Learning how to struggle against tools without giving up IS an important skill - but when you're just trying to start by teaching kids to care AT ALL, it's more important that they feel like they're winning. They can learn how to properly struggle once they've learned that it's worth the effort. When they can throw the use of some advanced libraries together and come up with something fun in a single classroom session, they're more likely to also view programming as fun - and thus hopefully just a LITTLE more likely to actually care about it.

In short, Visual Basic is a gateway drug - and a pretty effective one at that.

Anyways, that's my two cents.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#286
post #30
post #9

I cringe reading this. Since when it is alright to tell teachers how to do their job in bullet pointed letters? * Be an adult and talk about any issues, complements or concerns during the class. * Talk with them in person or on the phone. * If you wish, post to your blog after the issues have been resolved. To put a global context on the situation should be supported with evidence as it pertains to life as a women in…

Hello? Why would it not be ok to tell a teacher how to do their job when they're clearly failing at it? Who, exactly, is the customer here? My only complaint about the article is that it did not name the teacher or the school. Public shaming can work wonders.

Public shaming seems extremely excessive when this teacher is just a symptom of the real problem. The real problem here is that we don't fund schools well enough to reduce the class sizes to the point where her suggestions are reasonable. Her suggests would be great in a world of 10 student classrooms - and that is a world that we CAN MAKE HAPPEN. If we were willing to loosen our wallets.

As it is, in a world of 30-40 (and climbing) students per classroom and 5+ classes a day, a teacher who tried to one-on-one mentor every student they came across would be fired. They wouldn't have the time to actually teach the curriculum of the class, and would quickly find themselves out of a job.

Let's not blame and shame this teacher - that's the equivalent of blaming a brick that falls off the roof of a shoddily-constructed building for killing a bystander. Instead of blaming the contractors who built the roof, let's put the brick on trial.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#287
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well same is true for any class right? haha. the question is, why would we want someone no experience with programming to teach programming class to our kids?

Because it's that, or nothing? It's not like high schools are rolling in money. Even if they could afford to hire an extra teacher just to teach programming, what programmer would want to teach for $20k when he can make (at least according to HN) $120k in the industry?

$20k? There is no full-time public school teacher making that. In Jersey City, teachers averaged in 2012 $67,412 with a contractually-limited 183 work days per year, that includes inservice/training days and excludes up to 8 personal days and additional sick days; with each day lasting a maximum of about 7 hours, including about a 40 minute lunch period. If a programmer gets 3 paid weeks of vacation per year, they work approximately 219 days per year. At an average salary of say $100,000 that's about $456 per work day. And often that includes no pension/retirement benefits. A teacher makes about $368 per day, however a teacher in New Jersey with 20 years service gets about 36% of the average of their three highest salary years as retirement income -- for life.

I'm not crying over teacher pay. That they don't get paid enough is propaganda from the teachers unions. Yes I realize that teachers work after hours grading papers, etc. However programmers often work late into the night as well without extra money too. Programmers often spend their own money (along with teachers) on extra software, tools and other things to help them do their job better without necessarily getting a reimbursement.

I'd rather be crying over administrators that continually make unenlughtened decisions about curriculum, methodology and creativity.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#288
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From TFA I suggested that she talk to you. I offered to talk to you. I offered to come talk to the class. I offered to send one of my male friends, perhaps a well-known local programmer, to go talk to the class.

It sounds like the author offered these choices to the child and not to the teacher.

Yep. If a teacher were offered to have a well known software engineer come into their class, I can promise you they'd jump on it - if for no other reason than that it'd give them a break for an hour in their otherwise insane workdays. That was the biggest hint to me that she never actually said this to the teacher himself. What public school teacher wouldn't take her up on that, ever?

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#289
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't a subtle accusation, because in my experience people who say school violence doesn't happen or they never saw it happen are/were actually bullies themselves. This post just confirmed it with the nice twisting of words, 'defense of rape as normal high school experience', oh really? I was pointing out how much, much worse stuff happens in schools than just being told to 'make a sandwich' and trust me, I would…

I think you may be using violence to mean any kind of bullying, which is a little vague. Teenage girls certainly engage in a lot of bullying, but very little physical violence, perhaps even less so in the rich private school environment I was in. I'm sorry you don't believe me. And I think claiming that not-rape would be extraordinary is pretty solidly in line with saying that rape is normal, yes. To me the thread il…

But there isn't a problem to solve for this community, because bullying isn't actually seen/acknowledged as a problem. Education officials are also only paying lip service and even that only after some very horrible case hits the newspapers and teachers are very underpaid for the amount of work they do. And the people who were bullied either won't get into any position of power with the capability to enact changes or are truly trying to forget it all.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#290
ITT: overprotective mother tries to shield daughter from the cruelty of high school. Link is posted on a site where a large percentage of the audience were nerds in high school when computers and an interest in science was considered uncool and grounds for getting dragged through shit.

I'm all for gender equality in IT and the like, but again, high school. Put a girl in a classroom full of hormone-ridden teenage boys that probably don't see much of that kind very often, see what happens.

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