The Dark Side Of Software Development That No One Talks About • Hacker News Board

Re: The Dark Side Of Software Development That No One Talks About

#111

Post by pfh » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 12:00 AM UTC

Being a jerk comes naturally with being a journeyman. You've got an idea, and you're out to prove it's the best. Especially so in computing, where the only winning strategy is complete world domination.

Mastery of a subject means giving up attachment to favourite ideas and seeing the merits of all of them. But we've not really set up a society acknowledge this, we're stuck in a world of thousands of journeymen, with just a few people who have reached such transcendent heights that their mastery is obvious. We're stuck in a society that values novelty over good taste.

Re: The Dark Side Of Software Development That No One Talks About

#112

Post by stephencanon » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:05 AM UTC

nickthemagicman wrote: post #69

Just commenting to say, that in our profession WITHOUT licensure there is not other way to really prove that we're competent except for our reputation. This leads to big egos and constantly trying to make your self look better no matter what. If we were a licensed profession like medicine where you have a third party proof of your competence and you weren't constantly trying to guard your reputation, I bet you that i…

> If we were a licensed profession like medicine...

You've never hung around with doctors outside of the hospital, clearly. Their egos, in general, dwarf any I've encountered in software or hardware.

Re: The Dark Side Of Software Development That No One Talks About

#113

Post by skunkworks » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 1:09 AM UTC

foobarbazqux wrote: post #71

skunkworks wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find that someone who doesn't work well with emotions is typically bad at reasoning too, because the arguments they make end up expressing their feelings in obtuse ways. This is an interesting explanation. Do you think that people bad at understanding their emotions are less aware or mindful of their unconscious biases?

Yeah, more or less. I think that whatever is unconscious (read: lost, forgotten, dissociated, unfelt, or unthought) ends up getting expressed anyway, in yourself or in your relationships. Seeing this expression clearly in the world requires working with your emotions. If you cannot do that, then it's very difficult for any of your strongly held "rational" views to change, because doing so would require dealing with s…

I agree wholeheartedly that unconscious desires find ways to express themselves, but it's novel for me to correlate those who are disconnected from their emotions (i.e. push them into their unconscious) with those who are more likely to fall victim to cognitive biases, dissonance, etc. It makes a ton of sense; for example, it takes all of my mindfulness to stop myself during a discussion/argument and ask myself honestly whether I'm open to hearing someone's argument or if I'm just feigning openness while trying to get a point across that I've tied my ego to. Oh, the inertia of preconceived thoughts and biases.

This is very useful to know, so thanks for the light-bulb moment. It'll be easier to step away from discussions when I can recognize that someone will live and die with their agenda because A) they lack the mindfulness to divorce their emotions from their stance, B) their identity and ego is built upon this stance, and C) no one will let you come by and sweep away their identity/ego without a fight, especially when their emotions, repressed or not, are swarming.

I guess it's easier to trust the judgment someone who's aware of their emotions than someone who's got a glaring blind spot.

Re: The Dark Side Of Software Development That No One Talks About

#114

Post by foobarbazqux » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:08 AM UTC

skunkworks wrote: post #113

foobarbazqux wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, more or less. I think that whatever is unconscious (read: lost, forgotten, dissociated, unfelt, or unthought) ends up getting expressed anyway, in yourself or in your relationships. Seeing this expression clearly in the world requires working with your emotions. If you cannot do that, then it's very difficult for any of your strongly held "rational" views to change, because doing so would require dealing with s…

I agree wholeheartedly that unconscious desires find ways to express themselves, but it's novel for me to correlate those who are disconnected from their emotions (i.e. push them into their unconscious) with those who are more likely to fall victim to cognitive biases, dissonance, etc. It makes a ton of sense; for example, it takes all of my mindfulness to stop myself during a discussion/argument and ask myself hones…

Cool, glad my perspective was helpful. Sometimes stepping away from an argument, while it gets you away from being locked into either attachment to the argument or aversion to the argument, can turn into the third poison of disinterest in the argument. Detached engagement is the antidote here. If it's somebody I care about that I'm close to, or if it's myself, often I will ask about and validate associated feelings with the hope but not the expectation that it loosens whatever strongly held stance a little bit. People are a lot less rigid in their thinking when they know that they've been heard both intellectually and emotionally. Most of the time this approach won't actually change anything, but once in a while you'll get to witness a miracle.

Re: The Dark Side Of Software Development That No One Talks About

#115

Post by karmajunkie » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:27 AM UTC

nickthemagicman wrote: post #100

karmajunkie wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in my experience. That just lends itself to a lot of protectionism and equally inflated egos (and the piece of paper to prove you earned it.) In fact, only academia tops medicine for inflated egos and self-aggrandizing behavior in my book.

Ego is not so much the problem, it's that the computer industry is way more cutthroat. Doctor's and Academic's ego's come from having to maintain the same reputation that a computer person has to maintain. However, it's worse for the computer monkeys because we have the same level of intellectual capital to master yet we have no license to protect our years of knowledge which makes the industry way more cutthroat and…

Man, I just totally disagree with all of that. I wrote medical software for most of my career, except for a brief stint as a pre-med student, and the level of narcissism I found in medical doctors far exceeded anything I came across in technical circles (not counting some percentage of founders). My girlfriend is in academia, and a similar trend prevails there. Contrast this with wanton disdain for credentials in much of the tech community coupled with a great deal of willingness to help each other out. Maybe I'm just blessed to live in a town like Austin, but this industry is anything but cutthroat on technical merits.

Re: The Dark Side Of Software Development That No One Talks About

#116

Post by andrewflnr » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 2:39 AM UTC

boomlinde wrote: post #23

wahsd wrote: post #10

I have found that the more loudmouth and jerk-like the person is, the more they are covering up the realization that what they have/do is not all that unique, significant, or otherwise difficult yet rather comfortable and lucrative. Thus, they feel compelled to loud mouth barking and posturing to protect their bone. It's probably the same kind of mentality of a dog that snarls at his owner that just put down a bowl o…

I see what you mean but I doubt a dog would be able to realize any of that.

That's why they tend to have to learn the hard way, with consistent negative enforcement. Positive reinforcement is nice, but it's not always an option.

Re: The Dark Side Of Software Development That No One Talks About

#117

Post by jsonmez » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 3:55 AM UTC

rybosome wrote: post #77

logjam wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. Tact, compassion, and honesty are not in any way incompatible. And no, people who think they are being "brutally honest" while forgetting compassion or even basic fucking manners are not doing so with others' best interests at heart. They are just being assholes. There are bonafide reasons for that behavior, and they deserve a measure of compassion themselves while receiving that message, but don't try gilding…

Correct. I'm sick of the "I am just being honest" defense. There is a large margin between being honest and being an asshole. Question: "Do you think I should rewrite this code?" Honest answer: "Yes, definitely. You've made some mistakes that will make this impossible to maintain, such as...". Asshole answer: "Yeah, this code looks like shit". As the author noted, this tendency is symptomatic of people with high inte…

Yes yes yes... all my yes

Re: The Dark Side Of Software Development That No One Talks About

#118

Post by skunkworks » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 4:47 AM UTC

foobarbazqux wrote: post #114

skunkworks wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree wholeheartedly that unconscious desires find ways to express themselves, but it's novel for me to correlate those who are disconnected from their emotions (i.e. push them into their unconscious) with those who are more likely to fall victim to cognitive biases, dissonance, etc. It makes a ton of sense; for example, it takes all of my mindfulness to stop myself during a discussion/argument and ask myself hones…

Cool, glad my perspective was helpful. Sometimes stepping away from an argument, while it gets you away from being locked into either attachment to the argument or aversion to the argument, can turn into the third poison of disinterest in the argument. Detached engagement is the antidote here. If it's somebody I care about that I'm close to, or if it's myself, often I will ask about and validate associated feelings w…

Yet another good point re: disinterest in an argument being a potential third poison. I can see how detached engagement at least gives you an opportunity to have your voice be heard without the angst of fully-attached engagement. I think I have a tendency to walk away from arguments with unreasonable people, which seems like a good thing at first but is probably suboptimal from a professional standpoint. Thanks again, friend.

Re: The Dark Side Of Software Development That No One Talks About

#119

Post by philangist » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 4:55 AM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #84

programminggeek wrote: post #2

Replace Software Development with any job and you are really on to something. People are mean and jerks are everywhere. Perhaps somehow society has convinced us otherwise, but there are a lot of terrible people out there. A lot of people do evil things, a lot of people hurt other people. This is not new and it's not a secret, people for whatever reason are more oblivious to it than they should be or perhaps people ar…

Having been in the work world for a while, I feel like this is new to an extent. I feel like harsh competition to the level of people being willing to sabotage their own projects and so-forth, is a phenomena of a gradually intensifying market-driven pressure that has been unleashed on society through a variety of forces (take-over focused hedge-funds and investor, market-efficiency ideologies, etc). But reference tha…

That article on the Gervais principle blew my mind and I'd suggest that everyone reads it.

Re: The Dark Side Of Software Development That No One Talks About

#120

Post by rybosome » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 5:52 AM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #79

rybosome wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. I'm sick of the "I am just being honest" defense. There is a large margin between being honest and being an asshole. Question: "Do you think I should rewrite this code?" Honest answer: "Yes, definitely. You've made some mistakes that will make this impossible to maintain, such as...". Asshole answer: "Yeah, this code looks like shit". As the author noted, this tendency is symptomatic of people with high inte…

I think if you are using Mensa as your reference set, you've got some pretty extreme sample bias in terms of 'egos'.

lol...nice catch. When I received my acceptance letter, I had to call them to see if I was actually a member; they had sent me someone else's test results. Nobody is above looking like a dumbass from time to time, either. =)