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Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

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Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#61

Post by pyre »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #60
mikeash wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not at all obligated to abide by an open source license that just happened to be bundled in with a bunch of files you downloaded. The thing is, without that license, you're bound by copyright. That means you're not allowed to redistribute those files, or anything derived from them, at all without permission from the copyright holder, with the exception of uses allowed by fair use. For source code and similar t…

I think the point you make is an excellent one. However, we've seen court decisions that essentially equate ToS violations with wire fraud, no? I wonder where the line gets drawn...

> we've seen court decisions that essentially equate ToS violations with wire fraud, no?

I can only think of one, and it was overturned. Most of the others (that I can think of) have to do with an employee/employer relationship. Even the recent Craigslist case wasn't necessarily a case of ToS violation, because they were explicitly asked to C&D, but didn't.

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#62

Post by wpietri »

joshma wrote: post #58
Mithaldu wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have some sympathy with this if you made it easy for single people to pay you to be able to use your data in a manner outside of the ToS of the free APIs. However, for the Elevation API there are two choices: * free and heavily restricted * business api, which looks extremely sketchy † and is blocked to most people The gaming world has learned this with Steam and friends already. People will pirate the hell o…

I don't understand this feeling of self-entitlement - who are we to judge whether or not an API has been offered "in a reasonable manner?" I'm guessing it's very resource-consuming to collect, process, and maintain the data necessary for geolocation APIs (especially given the upstream providers). It'd be one thing for Google to be deceptive about it, offer a free service, and try to upsell you every point along the w…

I agree in part with your point, but I think Google has pulled a bit of a bait and switch here. For many years, they were conspicuously open and friendly, as you would expect from a company run by engineers. That got them a lot of geek love, and a big boost to their early adoption efforts. I also think it had the effect of stunting the growth of alternatives. (E.g., Google Reader.)

Now they are running things more in standard large-business style. There's a natural rebound from that as people adjust. I agree the pragmatic thing is to drop the high expectations; I don't think Google is going back. But I can see why people are going to get all Kubler-Ross on Google while they adjust.

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#63

Post by [deleted] »

joshma wrote: post #58
Mithaldu wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have some sympathy with this if you made it easy for single people to pay you to be able to use your data in a manner outside of the ToS of the free APIs. However, for the Elevation API there are two choices: * free and heavily restricted * business api, which looks extremely sketchy † and is blocked to most people The gaming world has learned this with Steam and friends already. People will pirate the hell o…

I don't understand this feeling of self-entitlement - who are we to judge whether or not an API has been offered "in a reasonable manner?" I'm guessing it's very resource-consuming to collect, process, and maintain the data necessary for geolocation APIs (especially given the upstream providers). It'd be one thing for Google to be deceptive about it, offer a free service, and try to upsell you every point along the w…

[deleted]

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#64

Post by enneff »

drdaeman wrote: post #53
Killswitch wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're confusing accessing a public version of their data with accessing their API, which this thread is about. When you use maps.google.com you are NOT agreeing to any terms, because they don't really require any to use their data on their site, but when you use the API, you're required to agree to their terms before being able to use it.

Aren't the same exact APIs are serving as backend to that "public version"? If so, looking at whatever data's on your wire (browsers are subclass of user-agents for a reason), and then doing similar requests by example does not make you sign some agreement with Google, right?

> Aren't the same exact APIs are serving as backend to that "public version"?

Nope.

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#65

Post by crymer11 »

joshma wrote: post #58
Mithaldu wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have some sympathy with this if you made it easy for single people to pay you to be able to use your data in a manner outside of the ToS of the free APIs. However, for the Elevation API there are two choices: * free and heavily restricted * business api, which looks extremely sketchy † and is blocked to most people The gaming world has learned this with Steam and friends already. People will pirate the hell o…

I don't understand this feeling of self-entitlement - who are we to judge whether or not an API has been offered "in a reasonable manner?" I'm guessing it's very resource-consuming to collect, process, and maintain the data necessary for geolocation APIs (especially given the upstream providers). It'd be one thing for Google to be deceptive about it, offer a free service, and try to upsell you every point along the w…

I would offer that any potential or actual user of the API is an apt judge of whether the API has been offered "in a reasonable manner."

As it currently stands, one has the option of 2,500 requests per day for free or a minimum of $10,000 [1] and a limit of 100,000 requests per day.

Is it unreasonable to wish for at least one option between the two current choices of $0 and >=$10,000? The parent isn't being self-entitled, he or she clearly stated, " ... if you made it easy for single people to pay you to be able to use your data ... [emphasis added]"

[1] "What is the cost of Google Maps API for Business?" - http://www.google.com/enterprise/earthmaps/maps-faq.html

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#66

Post by bluman »

Mithaldu wrote: post #38
dewitt wrote: post #11

FWIW, Google doesn't particularly like it when people use APIs outside the terms, either. Having to take down an app is never fun or enjoyable for anyone involved. And the cases in which the terms aren't programmatically enforced right away isn't necessarily a choice; often it is difficult to differentiate at scale between legitimate usage and disallowed usage. And while I don't know how every other company writes th…

I would have some sympathy with this if you made it easy for single people to pay you to be able to use your data in a manner outside of the ToS of the free APIs. However, for the Elevation API there are two choices: * free and heavily restricted * business api, which looks extremely sketchy † and is blocked to most people The gaming world has learned this with Steam and friends already. People will pirate the hell o…

In the specific example of the elevation data set, the data for the United States looks like it's public domain (USGS DEMs). The rest of the world may be more difficult to get high resolution but there is STRM which is reasonable ok for a lot of uses.

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#67

Post by SilasX »

crymer11 wrote: post #65
joshma wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this feeling of self-entitlement - who are we to judge whether or not an API has been offered "in a reasonable manner?" I'm guessing it's very resource-consuming to collect, process, and maintain the data necessary for geolocation APIs (especially given the upstream providers). It'd be one thing for Google to be deceptive about it, offer a free service, and try to upsell you every point along the w…

I would offer that any potential or actual user of the API is an apt judge of whether the API has been offered "in a reasonable manner." As it currently stands, one has the option of 2,500 requests per day for free or a minimum of $10,000 [1] and a limit of 100,000 requests per day. Is it unreasonable to wish for at least one option between the two current choices of $0 and >=$10,000? The parent isn't being self-enti…

So why was it outside the ToC to take the five snapshots for the Crime Doesn't Climb gif?

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#68

Post by Dylan16807 »

joshma wrote: post #58
Mithaldu wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have some sympathy with this if you made it easy for single people to pay you to be able to use your data in a manner outside of the ToS of the free APIs. However, for the Elevation API there are two choices: * free and heavily restricted * business api, which looks extremely sketchy † and is blocked to most people The gaming world has learned this with Steam and friends already. People will pirate the hell o…

I don't understand this feeling of self-entitlement - who are we to judge whether or not an API has been offered "in a reasonable manner?" I'm guessing it's very resource-consuming to collect, process, and maintain the data necessary for geolocation APIs (especially given the upstream providers). It'd be one thing for Google to be deceptive about it, offer a free service, and try to upsell you every point along the w…

It's not really entitlement. It's part of market forces. People say good things about products that are sold well, and bad things about products that are sold badly. Negative terms create negative buzz and drive people away. This is how it's supposed to work. And 'negative terms' is up to the market to decide. Obviously some people are unreasonable, but they're usually outliers.

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#69

Post by dll3824 »

Mithaldu wrote: post #38
dewitt wrote: post #11

FWIW, Google doesn't particularly like it when people use APIs outside the terms, either. Having to take down an app is never fun or enjoyable for anyone involved. And the cases in which the terms aren't programmatically enforced right away isn't necessarily a choice; often it is difficult to differentiate at scale between legitimate usage and disallowed usage. And while I don't know how every other company writes th…

I would have some sympathy with this if you made it easy for single people to pay you to be able to use your data in a manner outside of the ToS of the free APIs. However, for the Elevation API there are two choices: * free and heavily restricted * business api, which looks extremely sketchy † and is blocked to most people The gaming world has learned this with Steam and friends already. People will pirate the hell o…

Really, don't bother trying to contact them, it's not worth it. If anything their business API is less sketchy than their actual sales tactics.

We had two different conversations with them and the first time the rep quoted us a rate that worked out to $72 per 1000 map impressions. The second time we spoke to a different rep who, when asked the differences between the free plan and the business plan, told us that if we were currently on the free plan outside of the ToS there would be "consequences".

Edit: I should add that afterwards we immediately switched to MapBox. Straightforward pricing, and it feels great to know that we're supporting the open source community.

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#70

Post by skyebook »

bluman wrote: post #66
Mithaldu wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have some sympathy with this if you made it easy for single people to pay you to be able to use your data in a manner outside of the ToS of the free APIs. However, for the Elevation API there are two choices: * free and heavily restricted * business api, which looks extremely sketchy † and is blocked to most people The gaming world has learned this with Steam and friends already. People will pirate the hell o…

In the specific example of the elevation data set, the data for the United States looks like it's public domain (USGS DEMs). The rest of the world may be more difficult to get high resolution but there is STRM which is reasonable ok for a lot of uses.

About three years ago I got in contact with some very nice people at NASA and/or the USGS (I don't recall which agency ended up being the end-point) for what, at the time, was some of the best data available from the joint ASTER missions they ran with Japan.

The process was essentially to fill out a form and send them a new, unopened hard drive. What I got back a few weeks later was about 125GB of high resolution GeoTIFFs. Along with it were PDF's explaining how the data was rectified and cleaned up as well as information for how they encoded the data.

The process and interactions really impressed me with the quality of people involved in agencies like the USGS and NASA.. just like the people who provide API's in the tech industry, they're usually really in to what they do and interested in hearing how other people are making use.

The data is totally out there and you can get your hands on it without a) breaking terms of service or b) needing any sense of entitlement or self-righteous "ethics". I think the article hit the nail on the head. In that ignoring the data freely available reduces its viability. Projects like GeoNames, OpenStreetMap, the deactivated OpenAerialMap are all incredible sources of information that we can't afford to ignore in favor of the easy way out

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