To my daughter's high school programming teacher • Hacker News Board

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#161

Post by hdctambien » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 3:02 AM UTC

jere wrote: post #140

tsumnia wrote: post #118

Background: Currently teaching Intro to Programming using VB (not even 2012... cause our lead instructor's textbook is for 2010). I created a stir when I suggested we move to C, which we are next semester. Many of people have already commented on this, but from my understanding, this parent did NOTHING and it going a passive-aggressive route to complain. Going into the article, I was excited to read it initially beca…

>Many of people have already commented on this, but from my understanding, this parent did NOTHING and it going a passive-aggressive route to complain. Did we read the same article? >I consulted with friends — female developers — and talked to my daughter about how to handle the situation in class. I suggested that she talk to you. I offered to talk to you. I offered to come talk to the class. I offered to send one o…

> Unless I'm misunderstanding, the author claims to have spoken to the teacher and offer solutions

The author spoke with her daughter about things she could do: talk to the class, have a friend talk to the class, etc and the daughter decided that she would rather "plow through" than have her mom come to her high school and talk to her class.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#162

Post by discostrings » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 3:03 AM UTC

jessedhillon wrote: post #41

bangbang wrote: post #9

I cringe reading this. Since when it is alright to tell teachers how to do their job in bullet pointed letters? * Be an adult and talk about any issues, complements or concerns during the class. * Talk with them in person or on the phone. * If you wish, post to your blog after the issues have been resolved. To put a global context on the situation should be supported with evidence as it pertains to life as a women in…

One time in college, I went to a busy ice cream restaurant with some friends of mine (Fenton's in Emeryville). After entering, we saw there was just one single open table, so we went and put our jackets down on it and then got into line. After getting our ice cream we went back to the table only to find our jackets gone and some fat people sitting there, eating ice cream with their fat kids. When I asked where our ja…

> After getting our ice cream we went back to the table only to find our jackets gone and some fat people sitting there, eating ice cream with their fat kids.

> When I asked where our jackets were, a man, presumably the father of the obese family, told us that there were "some jackets" on the table but that they had the security guard come and clear them.

Is it just me, or is this comment really absurd, off-topic, and offensive?

First, why would you leave your jackets on a table out of your sight? The whole "put your jacket on a table to reserve it" thing is somewhat socially acceptable (though irritating), but it usually also involves keeping an eye on your jacket. You're lucky it wasn't on the floor or taken by someone other than the security guard when you got back.

But the larger issue I have with your comment is your reference to the size of the people who you're still mad at for taking "your" table. What does their obesity have to do with your story? In response to an article about discrimination, it almost seems like you must be trolling. Seriously, you could just substitute "slanteyes" or "niggers" and the substance of the story would not be at all changed. It read exactly that way to me.

Normally I'd just move on and assume others were offended as well, but this is somehow the highest voted reply...

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#163

Post by tsumnia » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 3:05 AM UTC

jere wrote: post #140

tsumnia wrote: post #118

Background: Currently teaching Intro to Programming using VB (not even 2012... cause our lead instructor's textbook is for 2010). I created a stir when I suggested we move to C, which we are next semester. Many of people have already commented on this, but from my understanding, this parent did NOTHING and it going a passive-aggressive route to complain. Going into the article, I was excited to read it initially beca…

>Many of people have already commented on this, but from my understanding, this parent did NOTHING and it going a passive-aggressive route to complain. Did we read the same article? >I consulted with friends — female developers — and talked to my daughter about how to handle the situation in class. I suggested that she talk to you. I offered to talk to you. I offered to come talk to the class. I offered to send one o…

To me it sounds like she made those offers to everyone but the instructor. There is no mention to the instructor's reaction to this offer. Also, when she later mentions the instructor 'not noticing' the daughter's less eager attitude, it gives me the opinion she never brought this up to the instructor. I might be wrong, but that seemed to be a discussion point in this thread so far.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#164

Post by theyak » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 3:07 AM UTC

It is completely unclear from this rant what the daughter knew before entering the class. I don't care if she had used Linux, that doesn't mean she knew jack squat about programming.

I taught an intro to computer programming course at a local community college for a semester. The curriculum was set, so I couldn't really venture off to my own thing. What I learned is that what we have to teach simply is boring. Sorry, but you have to learn about loops, conditionals, variables, and all those other mundane things before you can move on to more interesting things. And let's get real, how interesting are things ever going to be in a class? Not very. It gets exciting when you know enough to create a project on your own. An intro to computer course is not that course - I wish it were.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#165

Post by nmcfarl » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 3:07 AM UTC

bragh wrote: post #136

jacalata wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must have had one horrific childhood if your bar for "nothing wrong at school" is "no violence or rape". If you ever have kids, I hope you aim a little higher for them.

A school with "no violence or rape" wouldn't be just nothing wrong, it would be extraordinary. Even elite schools in developed and rich countries are filled with bullying: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/28/swedish-school-... Maybe you really ought to think about which school you went into in which neighborhood, which social clique you were a part of and if you still think no bullying happened, maybe it's t…

I read this comment as normalizing violence and rape - saying that it is expected, as a matter of course.

I disagree with that characterization. Bullying, violence, and rape should never be normalized, nor acceptable, regardless of the age of the perpetrators. This is aberrant, immoral behavior and should never be treated as anything else.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#166

Post by MPSimmons » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 3:11 AM UTC

bangbang wrote: post #9

I cringe reading this. Since when it is alright to tell teachers how to do their job in bullet pointed letters? * Be an adult and talk about any issues, complements or concerns during the class. * Talk with them in person or on the phone. * If you wish, post to your blog after the issues have been resolved. To put a global context on the situation should be supported with evidence as it pertains to life as a women in…

"The World" is not this static, unchanging place where everyone has to be a dick, and all you can do is learn from the school of hard knocks.

Over time, "The World" CAN be improved, and the people who inhabit it can be better to each other than they were before. It'll only change if we get youth to change, though, and teachers allowing the status quo to continue unquestioned is not the way to make sure that things are better in the future.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#167

Post by serf » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 3:14 AM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #135

cookiecaper wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Which real world are you advocating this high school programming class introduce to a 16-year-old girl? The real world where HR thought police aren't sitting in every room of every company. The real world where even HR people try to "make jokes" and be funny. The real world where HR people generally judge the severity of a harassment complaint by favoritism, which reality a blunt HR person (not employed at my curren…

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why 16-year-old girls leave programming. Remember, guys ganging up on you and telling them to make them a sandwich is just funny! You're so thin-skinned, ladies! thought police! http://hoydenabouttown.com/20110218.9512/sexist-joke-bingo/ ...almost got bingo... good work, cookiecaper.

that's the most PC thing I've seen all week.

and I mean that in the worst possible way.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#168

Post by navait » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 3:20 AM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #43

Maybe it's an age thing, but is it just me or is this phenomenon really new? When I was a kid, geeks were inclusive. Weird and horny and therefore prone to awkward creepiness, but not hostile . Was it always like this and I just need to "check my privilege" as a dude or has the 4chanification of geek culture invaded real life? And as for the VB, VB.Net is actually an okay language if you expose them to modern feature…

Harassment is one of those things that I think a lot of men don't recognize as such because we generally aren't subjected to the kind of sexual harrasment in the letter. But once you've seen it in action and recognize it as such, you can't unsee it. All of sudden, things you never thought about before, like sandwich jokes, are suddenly seen in a worse light.

While recognizing it means it seems like a new problem, it actually improves the situation because people will be less likely to engage in such behaviors if they don't think of it as harmless fun.

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#169

Post by jazzyb » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 3:22 AM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #147

I'm confused by the general scenario here - the daughter graduated high school last year, probably at age 16 - and is now repeating high school in India? The letter is to an Indian teacher in India? Is she going to a public school for Indian students there? It's the students in India asking her to make sandwiches? Is this some sort of student exchange program?

The letter is directed to the teacher who taught the daughter's programming class during her last year in the US, and all the incidents that the mother mentions occurred in this US class:

"During the first semester of my daughter's junior/senior year, she took her first programming class." -- We are told she finished early; therefore, we can assume that the "junior/senior" usage denotes the last year she was in the US.

The daughter is currently attending high school in India not because she necessarily needs to but rather because it is a learning experience before college:

"My daughter ... is now attending high school in India as her 'gap year' before heading off to college."

Re: To my daughter's high school programming teacher

#170

Post by pbhjpbhj » Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 3:24 AM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #58

ryanx435 wrote: post #3

my theory is that there are not a lot of women in tech jobs because the men in tech jobs generally don't know how to interact with women. any woman that shows an interest in tech is not disuaded by the material, but rather by the inability of her male coworkers to treat her normally. I would not want to work or study in an environment surrounded by social akwardness and harassment either. the problem lies with the me…

We could make that argument a decade ago. A decade ago, geeks were just weird, and prone to incompetent and awkward social advances that could scare a young lady. A group that's incapable of making her feel comfortable. And in a sense, you can't really blame them much for that. Social clumsiness and normal loneliness and desire aren't exactly crimes. But what the author describes isn't like that. He described an acti…

>* He described an actively hostile and misogynistic classroom.* //

It may be misogyny but my experience of groups of youths makes me feel it's "just" verbal abuse. She's not being targeted because she's a girl she's being targeted because [almost] everyone is.

High-schoolers pick on others because those others have traits that make them stand out. There's probably a kid in the same class being picked on because he's short, another because he's stupid, another because he's poor. So, this one is being picked on because she's a girl - that's what stands out most about her against the common traits of the group. Is that really misogyny is it disproportionate because she's a girl.

In some ways that the only thing that they latched on to was her gender is positive - hear me out on this one - that suggests that she's good looking, she's not poor, not fat, not spotty, not known amongst the students for moral deficiency. In fact I feel it's basically a confession that they've got nothing else to pick on her for.

If the worst she got was a well recycled joke it sounds like she was probably having an easier time of it than most kids in the classroom, no.

None of that is to say nothing should be done about someone feeling the environment they're in isn't conducive to education of course. It just strikes me that sexism isn't the root problem - if instead she was picked on for being a swot [that's perhaps UK-ism, a conscientious and attentive student with a hint of toadying] would that have been better somehow?