Live data from Hacker News

Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

petewarden.com

11–20 of 117 posts

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#11
FWIW, Google doesn't particularly like it when people use APIs outside the terms, either. Having to take down an app is never fun or enjoyable for anyone involved. And the cases in which the terms aren't programmatically enforced right away isn't necessarily a choice; often it is difficult to differentiate at scale between legitimate usage and disallowed usage.

And while I don't know how every other company writes their developer Terms of Services, I do know that in Google's case we measure each word carefully and try hard to strike the right balance between offering as much as feasibly possible, while trying to create something long-term sustainable (so even if the usage grows far beyond our initial goals, we're still in a position to keep them available). We're hardly perfect at it yet, but we're certainly getting a lot better over time.

Also worth noting, often times these terms are designed to honor upstream data contracts, so if for no other reason, it's worth trying to respect them because it's the right thing to do for the other relatively small parties, too.

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#13
post #7

His site http://www.datasciencetoolkit.org/ certainly looks interesting! One of the most impressive kinds of arguments - "I think you should stop doing x and here are the resources y I've created/curated to make it easier for you to do so."

I was thinking the same thing. Lots of people get the first part. But not so much with the second part.

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violating the terms of a license is very different to violating the Terms of service you "sign" with a button click.

Actually I'd argue that you're more obligated to abide by something you explicitly checked "I have read and accepted..." than something that was listed somewhere in a file you downloaded with some other stuff. You probably just happen to like the terms of the GPL or ASL more than you like the terms of Google's API. I do too - but at what point are we just losing all integrity because we're too lazy to read a long doc…

If there is an actual click-through and the license is understandable by a human, perhaps. Usually there is neither, though.

I rarely even know how to look up terms of an API, or that there is an API. If I know the name of the API, I can look for "Google Foo API", but that name isn't always obvious. If I just see a URL with an obvious schema, and I change the HTTP GET parameters to retrieve different stuff, am I allowed to use that in, say, a small-scale art project, or not? The usual internet default is that public URLs are implicitly giving blanket permission to retrieve them, except that retrieval by spiders should abide by robots.txt. Google itself makes heavy use of this ok-to-retrieve default assumption.

If I go to http://maps.google.com there is no license presented to me as a condition of using the service. I can however look for fine print and seek out the link "Terms of Service" of my own accord, at which point I get this: http://www.google.com/intl/en_ALL/help/terms_maps.html

Those terms specifically forbid several things I'm definitely not doing (mass-downloading data, using it for turn-by-turn navigation, etc.), so my first read of it makes it sound like grabbing Maps content in my art project is okay. But then I'm not a lawyer, so maybe it isn't okay.

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#17
It's rate limited for a reason and every other so called "better alternative" will have some sort of limitations in place, if they want to stay in business. Nothing is for free. By saying people will just magically make a free, unlimited API service as long as people stop using Google's is dumb.

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#18
I've been meaning to put together a more technical blog post about the various geo pieces that we've released at foursquare. But for now, here's one that's an overview of the things we've been working on: http://engineering.foursquare.com/2013/06/11/quattroshapes-a...

The biggest piece is http://twofishes.net/, our coarse (city/neighborhood level) geocoder based on geonames data. It also serves as our coarse reverse geocoder when we combine it with polygon data, which we've released at http://quattroshapes.com/, as a combination of open government data and synthesized data.

http://zetashapes.com/ is a side project of ours, where we're seeing if people want to draw their own crowdsourced neighborhood boundaries in US by coloring in a map of basically city blocks.

I'm always eager to chat about open geodata as well as complimentary commercial solutions.

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#19
From the article: "I’m not RMS, I love open-source for very pragmatic reasons. One of the biggest is that I hate hitting black boxes when I’m debugging!"

RMS started the free software movement because he wasn't able to adapt a black box printer.

Re: Why you should not pirate Google’s geo APIs

#20
I wonder how much of this is an outgrowth of 'hackathon culture' which is to say "Hey we can do this thing ..." and get to some demo without having the foundation bits worked out. (or more importantly the future foundation bits).

There are a lot of people who used to make 'kit cars' which was they took a VW bug chassis, removed the bodywork, and installed some fiberglass body on it. Really "cool" looking sports cars. But you couldn't really say "We're going to be the next Porsche selling our new "Wangdingo" sports car which, as it turns out, is a fiberglass body on top of a VW bug chassis. The difference between kids making a prototype which looks cool (professional even, some of these cars were really really nice) but as a 'new car' it was always a cheat since the other bits weren't engineered, they were 'acquired' and outside the plans of the original engineers for the chassis. Compared to the 'motorhome' business where the company buys a Chassis from Ford or Chevy as a chassis to build a new vehicle on.

Makes for an interesting conundrum. You can fail fast and iterate prototyping like this, and you can arrive at a saleable product for which there is no route to production because the underlying tech you rely on cannot be used 'legally' the way you want to use it, and the amount of money the product might conceivably generate is less than the cost of re-creating the crucial bit of technology from scratch.

Post reply on HN