Live data from Hacker News

'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

theguardian.com

141–150 of 168 posts

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same media that regularly objectifies women in your opinion? In my opinion? Citation needed. > You and all the whiners just like you Sweeping generalisation. So to be clear, you're saying that there's no fuss being made, and also it's being made by "whiners"?

Does "the media" regularly objectify women or not in your opinion or not? Why not just tell me the truth instead of asking me to cite you on your own opinion? (I just can't imagine that you think "the media" is any better than this titstare app. Have you watched TV before?)

Seeing as I never gave any opinion on the question of "Does "the media" regularly objectify women or not", it's irrelevant, despite you erroneously attributing that to me. It's a derailing tactic.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does "the media" regularly objectify women or not in your opinion or not? Why not just tell me the truth instead of asking me to cite you on your own opinion? (I just can't imagine that you think "the media" is any better than this titstare app. Have you watched TV before?)

Seeing as I never gave any opinion on the question of "Does "the media" regularly objectify women or not", it's irrelevant, despite you erroneously attributing that to me. It's a derailing tactic.

I responded to your assertion that:

> Given the response that occurred in the media and in general...

So no, it's not a derailing tactic. And if you didn't notice, this thread is three pages to the right. There's nothing to derail.

When you're having a conversation in person, do you accuse them of being a Troll and derailing the conversation when they respond to your ridiculous assertions?

Give me a fucking break. This is like arguing with a three year old. OK fine, you can have the last word if it's so important to you. I've already torn apart every single point you think you've made, so fuck off.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing as I never gave any opinion on the question of "Does "the media" regularly objectify women or not", it's irrelevant, despite you erroneously attributing that to me. It's a derailing tactic.

I responded to your assertion that: > Given the response that occurred in the media and in general... So no, it's not a derailing tactic. And if you didn't notice, this thread is three pages to the right. There's nothing to derail. When you're having a conversation in person, do you accuse them of being a Troll and derailing the conversation when they respond to your ridiculous assertions? Give me a fucking break. Th…

If someone repeatedly said things in person like "Give me a fucking break" and "fuck off" and being generally disrespectful, while asserting that "I've already torn apart every single point you think you've made" and regularly misreading what's being said and failing to address the substantial point then yes, I would call them immature.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's childish and inconsiderate. That's your fucking opinion though. > I leave it to you to work out..blah blah blah. Oh gawd. What a fucking cop-out. Stop replying to me you chicken shit.

I am capable of disagreeing without resorting to abusive and threatening behaviour. While trying to understand what the other person is saying. Skills that you could learn.

You should learn how to think logically about things and then you won't be so offended all the time at the world around you.

Nobody fucking threatened or abused you - that's just your weak minded tactic for appearing to be a victim. Oh look, poor you. It's the same weakness that causes you to be offended at tit jokes.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I responded to your assertion that: > Given the response that occurred in the media and in general... So no, it's not a derailing tactic. And if you didn't notice, this thread is three pages to the right. There's nothing to derail. When you're having a conversation in person, do you accuse them of being a Troll and derailing the conversation when they respond to your ridiculous assertions? Give me a fucking break. Th…

If someone repeatedly said things in person like "Give me a fucking break" and "fuck off" and being generally disrespectful, while asserting that "I've already torn apart every single point you think you've made" and regularly misreading what's being said and failing to address the substantial point then yes, I would call them immature.

Respect is earned, not given.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#146
I am also a woman in tech, and I have been writing code for a living in the last 15-20 years. I didn't find titstare presentation offensive or demeaning. In fact I laughed quite a bit when they presented it. Even if women are not included in the brogrammers club, I don't find much discrimination in the work environment either. If you are great at what you do, you have the same chance as anybody else. My 2 cents.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone repeatedly said things in person like "Give me a fucking break" and "fuck off" and being generally disrespectful, while asserting that "I've already torn apart every single point you think you've made" and regularly misreading what's being said and failing to address the substantial point then yes, I would call them immature.

Respect is earned, not given.

People on HN generally start off with a reasonable amount of respect from me - more so than Reddit or 4chan for instance. I've never seen anyone piss it away so rapidly before though.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#148
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had me up until "Sexism is a female only problem". This is provably false for any sane definition of sexism. Try being a male nurse or kindergarten teacher, getting an allegation of sexual abuse taken seriously, looking at the statistics of criminal charges vs. convictions by gender etc.

Sexism is not a problem for men as long as men hold most of the power and are afforded most of the best opportunities. Equality is not about uniformity — it is about the overall balance. You are picking small examples where women outnumber men and are claiming cause and effect. Show me a genuinely powerful organisation or occupation that discriminates against men and I'll fight it with you. Looking at Kindergarten te…

You are using an extremist definition of sexism. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree; when this is the foundation I could never agree with you.

I think that this uncompromising attitude harms your cause rather than help it, though. I am a big proponent of equality of opportunity, fighting for it whenever I see gender discrimination in my regular circle. But this adversarial form of feminism makes otherwise compromising men dig in their heels, and you end up with a battle of the sexes rather than the possibility for change. I will never support a cause that claims that 50% of the world's population is exempt from the right to claim discrimination. Thankfully only part of the feminist movement has views that are this extreme.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#149
post #98
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about intent, it's about perception. Using or building a tit-staring app may or may not imply that the guy in question respects women less for their technical merits, or judges them on looks rather than skills. The problem is that as a technical woman in the audience, you will be very likely to perceive such an initiative as something that detracts from your personal values (professional merit, technical ski…

Put that way, it may make sense...My problem is that almost everyone is reacting as if the intention of that presentation was to demean or objectify women rather than make light of the fact that men do stare at tits. Still, I'd go for both men and women understanding each other over political correctness. Reason, this will eventually lead to men only events http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5811 . I wouldn't go for makin…

Yeah, I agree with these points, and I believe the last one is a big deal. The ideal would be a tech community where there is a suitable balance in all respects. It doesn't provide any benefit if a lot of people have to self-censor in the name of political correctness. When people claim that this is necessary, they are missing the point. This is a nuanced situation where it would be very easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The PyCon incident perfectly illustrated this.

Re: 'Titstare' app at TechCrunch: women in tech deserve better

#150
This highlights major problems our community suffers while the comments here clearly demonstrate a few more. It's all very disappointing. We are not doing ourselves any favours here.

1. Many male developers assume that they are in an all-male environment and behave as if they are. Sniggering schoolboy humour, edgy jokes, sexual jokes are a part of young male pack behaviour that is relatively harmless in all-male environments. In mixed environments they are not only inappropriate but they send the signal to other people that this is a young, male environment. Only.

To be inclusive we need to drop the male pack mentality. It is right to call out this behaviour, especially in public environments: conferences, keynotes, hacker sessions. It is also right to call-out all-male speaker-panels for the same reason.

2. Something 'sexy' is not automatically 'sexist' — it all depends where the power is. A tits-tracking app is (apart from being male-pack humour) an example of those with the power in the room making fun at the expense of those less powerful in the room. It is also 'objectification' — the reinforcement of a women's place as being an object to look at or to have sex with, rather than being an intellectual equal. The women in the room are expected to laugh it off or be subject to more ridicule: "it's just a bit of fun" — This is classic bullying behaviour. As long as these rooms are mostly full of men, women will be powerless to do anything about it. It's no surprise that the fight-back starts only once these incidents hit the internet: our community is bullying women.

3. A group of women ironically creating a pack-track app that tracks penises wouldn't automatically be sexist. It would almost certainly be funny and ironic for two reasons: 1) the balance of power is against the women 2) they would be shining a light onto male-pack behaviour. Men, still holding the balance of power here, should be able to laugh such a thing off. Sadly many of you here wouldn't.

4. Commentators here have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Feminism and Sexism is. They are confusing equality with uniformity.

Feminism is a civil rights movement. It is about equality of power and opportunity for women. Much like anti-racism it isn't about people making jokes about each other: it is about segregated jobs, inequality of opportunity, economic discrimination.

Seeking equality is not the same as seeking uniformity. Just because you can find an example where women have more jobs in a sector doesn't mean that it is sexism against men. It is often the opposite: low-paid caring jobs around cleaning and child-rearing. The low-pay & low-power is the result of years of sexism, as is the usual case where men who get into these roles quickly rise through the ranks and far more likely to become bosses (despite their under-representation). Some women protect these environments as all-women precisely to give them a chance at promotion. While I don't condone this behaviour I can at least understand it.

Equality is the big picture; the balance of the scales. Men still hold the top jobs, the powerful jobs: Judges, Police Chiefs, Prime Ministers, Presidents, Board Members. Equality of opportunity is the ability to rise through the ranks based on ability not sex.

5. Most sexism is silent. We do it without knowing we are doing it. Men appoint men because the other men are men like themselves. Men know how to talk to men; Geeky men more-so. We fill our conferences with men, our panels with men, our keynotes with men because it is an easy thing to do. We promote bright young men because they remind us of ourselves. We tell ourselves that we are simply picking the best.

Combating this silent sexism is hard. As long as all we see is men everywhere then we will continue to be silently sexist and women will continue to silently vote with their feet.

6. It is sexist to say that men are better at programming than women. Unless you have scientific proof that I haven't seen: women are perfectly good at hacking. Any woman who has chosen a career in IT despite the discrimination stacked against her (see above) is already extraordinary yet we will generally treat her less than an ordinary hacker.

Women make up 51% of the population, they are out-performing men in school & university here in the UK and they should therefore be over 50% of our community. But they are not. This is somebody's fault and it is most probably ours. We have created an environment that is hostile to these bright young women and it is lunacy: we are throwing away half of the talent.

If we are throwing away half the talent how can we possibly be hiring the best? Half of whom we hire must be sub-standard!

Which brings me to:

7. Positive discrimination is the only way to go for our industry. We need to adjust our gender-balance by removing our obvious gender-bias. We are currently clearly discriminating against women so we should address this positively.

Post reply on HN