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The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

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Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#71

Post by derefr »

tim_chevalier wrote: post #36
derefr wrote: post #15

Interestingly, she possesses this bias as well: "If you're married, having people take you to lunch without them speculating on how your spouse would feel about them taking you to lunch." She is assuming here that the person "taking them out to lunch" is also male. If the offerer were female and the offered were male and married, there definitely would be speculation as to his fidelity, perhaps moreso than with the r…

I'm a guy.

Sorry, I was using the politically-correct singular-second-person-of-unknown-gender pronoun (I couldn't tell from the post that you were male.)

People don't seem to care as much when you assume a girl on the Internet is a guy, but assume a guy is a girl and everyone is up in arms. (This may be a point toward your post.)

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#72

Post by sethg »

derefr wrote: post #13
DanHulton wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Please don't downvote because you disagree. Downvoting is for people who are adding nothing to the conversation or actively trolling.) I was totally with you until the "I refuse to apologize for it" part. I'll apologize for it, because that's a part of being decent . I'll also explain the effect that kind of clothing has, and if the lady in question doesn't change the way she dresses, I'll inform HR so they are awar…

You would apologize if a tornado wrecked someone's home? If wild birds living in your acreage pooped on their car? If someone crashed their car (car C) because the car in front of you (car A) stopped, and you (car B) crashed into it , thereby causing all the cars behind you to do the same? All of these things are, at best, accidents. However, unlike normal accidents, where you could have prevented them by close scrut…

I don't know what the law is in other states, but in Massachusetts, if the car in front of you stops suddenly and you rear-end it, you are considered 100% at fault. (Unless you can prove that the other car stopped with the intent to cause an accident. Good luck with that.)

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#73

Post by sethg »

teilo wrote: post #6
j_baker wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd just like to point out that I also am a man and I don't have your problem. I have the capability of keeping my professional work environment professional .

Look, here's the deal. If you are a man, you have to actively move the eyes away, but the pull is always there. Now that does not mean you cannot be professional, but it does mean you have to constantly and actively choose to be so. A woman who dresses provocatively in the office is a distraction. Far be it from me to tell women how to dress, but most women do not understand the effect they have on men, and of those…

How do you define "provocatively"? If a woman has large breasts, how would you have her dress (especially in hot weather) that you would not consider "provocative"?

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#74

Post by tim_chevalier »

derefr wrote: post #71
tim_chevalier wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a guy.

Sorry, I was using the politically-correct singular-second-person-of-unknown-gender pronoun (I couldn't tell from the post that you were male.) People don't seem to care as much when you assume a girl on the Internet is a guy, but assume a guy is a girl and everyone is up in arms. (This may be a point toward your post.)

puzzled

My name, as the author, is at the top. Do you know a lot of women named "Tim"? (Kake, the original author, is a woman, but I contributed that particular item. Yes, I know that's not obvious from the list, which is why I clarified.)

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#75

Post by tim_chevalier »

derefr wrote: post #70
tim_chevalier wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I call bullshit. Under some theories (not particularly more or less credible than yours), rape is an "evolutionary urge". As is sex between adult men and 13-year-olds, as are all kinds of violent acts. Part of being an adult human is to control your "evolutionary urges and drives" so you can live in a society. Would you accept "the estrogen made me do it" from a woman as an excuse for behaving incivilly?

Yes, I would "accept" that—as a theoretical explanation. However, as a pure-determinist, I would also accept that people would be offended be her incivility, as their social mores would tell them to be in response. Likewise, rape is an evolutionary urge—but so is the urge to punish people for it, or prevent people from doing it. To simplify: there is no need to apologize for your urge to punch someone you don't like…

So if somebody raped your mother, it would make you happier if they felt no remorse than if they said they were sorry about what they'd done?

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#76

Post by teilo »

DanHulton wrote: post #10
teilo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, here's the deal. If you are a man, you have to actively move the eyes away, but the pull is always there. Now that does not mean you cannot be professional, but it does mean you have to constantly and actively choose to be so. A woman who dresses provocatively in the office is a distraction. Far be it from me to tell women how to dress, but most women do not understand the effect they have on men, and of those…

(Please don't downvote because you disagree. Downvoting is for people who are adding nothing to the conversation or actively trolling.) I was totally with you until the "I refuse to apologize for it" part. I'll apologize for it, because that's a part of being decent . I'll also explain the effect that kind of clothing has, and if the lady in question doesn't change the way she dresses, I'll inform HR so they are awar…

Anyone who is oogling should apologize. I make no excuse for those who refuse to reign in their male urges or who are obnoxious or creepy.

What I don't apologize for is having the urge in the first place. As another commentor well said, you may as well apologize for a force of nature.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#77

Post by likpok »

ahoyhere wrote: post #39
likpok wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if you pay attention to history, you can see that there isn't actually a predisposition which affects this. In the 1980's, about half[1] of computer scientists were women. Now? 10-20%. Something is being done, and it is being done wrong. So it's not as simple as "They don't want to" or "Society makes them". [1] I believe it to be about half. However, it might be slightly more or less. Definitely far higher than t…

Based on what metrics? Where are your #s coming from? What are you defining as "a computer scientist"?

There was an article in the NYT (I think it may be mentioned above) that discussed this. It appeared on slashdot, and I remember being quite aggravated at comments akin to 'Maybe they just don't want to', as the article explicitly dealth with this.

Also, I believe their metric may have been students, but I am not sure.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#78

Post by nopassrecover »

tim_chevalier wrote: post #63
nopassrecover wrote: post #19

"Not having to explain why the term "gentlemen" doesn't include you. " - So no "Hi gentleman", fair enough "# Listening to speakers refer to an inanimate software construct as "this guy" without getting distracted. " - So no "Hi guys", fair enough "Not being the special case ("hi guys and girls, I guess, too, if you want to get really technical about it!!") " - So no "Hi guys and girls", err..

The second point was meant to be about inanimate software constructs: for example, "This guy jumps to that guy without pushing a new stack frame." The difference between "hi guys and girls" and "hi guys and girls, I guess, too, if you want to get really technical about it!!" is that the second sentence goes out of its way to call attention to the Other-ness of the marginalized group. But why not circumvent the issue…

I see your point but guys has come to become gender neutral. Sure a guy is still male but "you guys" is anyone.

Re: The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

#79

Post by tim_chevalier »

nopassrecover wrote: post #78
tim_chevalier wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second point was meant to be about inanimate software constructs: for example, "This guy jumps to that guy without pushing a new stack frame." The difference between "hi guys and girls" and "hi guys and girls, I guess, too, if you want to get really technical about it!!" is that the second sentence goes out of its way to call attention to the Other-ness of the marginalized group. But why not circumvent the issue…

I see your point but guys has come to become gender neutral. Sure a guy is still male but "you guys" is anyone.

On this point, I recommend Douglas Hofstadter's "Person Paper on Purity in Language": http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html

Hofstadter makes the same point (that words that claim to be both gendered and gender-neutral are never the latter) in a less snarky way in Chapter 7 of his book _Metamagical Themas_, entitled "Changes in Default Words and Images, Engendered by Rising Consciousness". You can find it on Google Books.

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