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The psychiatric drug crisis

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61–70 of 153 posts

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#61
post #23

Good riddance. Psychiatry by and large is a sham field. Physicians who practice it love seeing themselves as artists who are experts in identifying the subtleties of human behavior. That's their way of saying there's very little underlying science guiding their practice. Many of the diagnoses given are pulled out of thin air and made to justify a patient's admission, or to appease a patient's desire to feel as if the…

I sat in on a psychiatry conference one afternoon where the docs discussed the treatment of several patients. Never was a scientific article or concept uttered. It was all "well, let's try him on seroquel and olanzapine, let's also throw Paxil in there."

One data point? You're talking about the 'how are we going to treat our current patients' conferences? I've been in a couple of those myself, and you're expecting something weird from them. It'd be like spending the afternoon with engineers and saying "I didn't hear any of them mention any of the laws of thermodynamics!".

I've worked with engineers building hardware, both medical and agricultural, and much of their day-to-day work is based on their innate understanding of the tasks at hand. At critical points in the design process, they will break out their formulas, but when they're discussing the generalities of what to do with their colleagues, they're not citing canonical resources. What you're desiring is a fantasy world.

You can't run any diagnostic tests on patients.

As someone who spent several years as a neuro tech, this isn't true. Some things have some tests. It is a very difficult field of study - possibly the most difficult in all of human experience - and it's true that there isn't a great amount of test coverage over the whole field. But you're mischaracterising it to say there are no tests.

We need better mechanical and abstract understanding of the mind before we douse it in chemicals.

That's a nice throwaway line. You make it sound like the mind is an easy thing to understand, and that it won't take long. And apparently, until we have this complete understanding, we should just say 'fuck you' to the people who are currently in need of help?

Overuse of pharmaceuticals is a problem, but the answer isn't to run screaming into the absolutist opposite direction.

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#62
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's play the devil's advocate here... I've known people who have lost their marbles once they stopped taking their meds. Are we rally saying that their grip on sanity was a placebo effect? Or are we saying that we're just treating the symptom? If it's just the symptom, who cares, as long as the drugs help people? For context, I'm not on any psychiatric drugs, have never been on any, and think they're largely being…

> If it's just the symptom, who cares, as long as the drugs help people? Because for many, these symptoms are not adequately addressed through more conservative means. There are numerous ways to attack an unusual disposition that do not involve medication -- exercising, weight loss, meditation, psychotherapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, rectifying family issues, finding a job. Many of these options are not adequate…

> I have never seen a psychiatrist refer a patient to see a psychologist or a cognitive behavioral therapist, and they have no incentive to really.

Plenty do, and there are questions about the efficacy of those techniques as well.

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a young engineer-type with no exposure to the psych field, I had about the same opinion when I was in my early 20's. However, a few decades of real life later I've seen first-hand, successes and turnarounds for people who either found themselves in bad situations or were just plain genetically vulnerable. In fact, I'll go as far as saying that counseling or therapy are nothing compared to the difference that the r…

As a programmer and former EEG tech, all I can do is nod quietly. They could be way more scientific about their medication selection if they wanted to be [1][2] but most psychiatrists are overconfident in their own judgement. [1] http://www.ncneurocenter.com/eeg/eeg_reference.html [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_electroencephalogr...

There's a difference between "how about we approach it more appropriately" and kyro's "we shouldn't use this at all until we have a near-complete understanding".

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#64
post #61
post #23

Good riddance. Psychiatry by and large is a sham field. Physicians who practice it love seeing themselves as artists who are experts in identifying the subtleties of human behavior. That's their way of saying there's very little underlying science guiding their practice. Many of the diagnoses given are pulled out of thin air and made to justify a patient's admission, or to appease a patient's desire to feel as if the…

I sat in on a psychiatry conference one afternoon where the docs discussed the treatment of several patients. Never was a scientific article or concept uttered. It was all "well, let's try him on seroquel and olanzapine, let's also throw Paxil in there." One data point? You're talking about the 'how are we going to treat our current patients' conferences? I've been in a couple of those myself, and you're expecting so…

1. I've sat in on multiple psych conferences. If you compare them with conferences in other specialties, you'll soon realize that there is a severe lack of scientific discourse happening. As I said, there is a belief that the field is an art and that the practitioners within are artists who rely heavily on their experience and preferences. Literature is hardly discussed. The DSM is the bible.

2. Yes, the best and most practical test we have is an EEG that, at best, tells you that something wonky is going on in this vague region of the brain. Good for seizure disorders, little else. The other tests we can run are to detect physiological causes of psychiatric symptoms external to the brain, like thyroid disorder, uremia, overdose, etc. Nobody sends a patient down for a routine fMRI. What tests are you referring to?

3. I'm not advocating to wait until we've achieved a complete understanding of the brain, but rather we explore more conservative managements while we get a better understanding of the mechanical workings on the brain. CBT, DBT, psychotherapy, etc, should be actively encouraged by psychiatrists as first-line options for many of these conditions. They simply aren't.

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#65
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a programmer and former EEG tech, all I can do is nod quietly. They could be way more scientific about their medication selection if they wanted to be [1][2] but most psychiatrists are overconfident in their own judgement. [1] http://www.ncneurocenter.com/eeg/eeg_reference.html [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_electroencephalogr...

There's a difference between "how about we approach it more appropriately" and kyro's "we shouldn't use this at all until we have a near-complete understanding".

I never advocated discontinuing the use of medications. In fact, I acknowledged their efficacy. I'm all for treating the people that cannot function otherwise -- they may have no other choice. I think for millions of others, there are other choices that are not being adequately pursued or encouraged.

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#66
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's play the devil's advocate here... I've known people who have lost their marbles once they stopped taking their meds. Are we rally saying that their grip on sanity was a placebo effect? Or are we saying that we're just treating the symptom? If it's just the symptom, who cares, as long as the drugs help people? For context, I'm not on any psychiatric drugs, have never been on any, and think they're largely being…

> If it's just the symptom, who cares, as long as the drugs help people? Because for many, these symptoms are not adequately addressed through more conservative means. There are numerous ways to attack an unusual disposition that do not involve medication -- exercising, weight loss, meditation, psychotherapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, rectifying family issues, finding a job. Many of these options are not adequate…

On the other hand, where I live (a non-US country with public healthcare), you don't get in contact with a psychiatrist directly; you get referred to one from a therapist. The therapist decides which kind of treatment of your symptoms is best, where one of their options is to pass you off to a psychiatrist (who the therapist thinks of as "the guy who will mostly think of this in terms of prescribing medications.") Even when the therapist thinks medication is a good treatment regimen, they usually suggest combining it various forms of talk-therapy (in other words, to keep seeing them, as well as seeing the psychiatrist.) Those are some much more neatly-aligned incentives, I think.

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I have to say, though, as a separate issue: neuroaffective medications of all kinds (whether for chemical imbalances, or hormonal imbalances, or pain-management, etc.) are basically like crutches.

Your problem might not be "just" a chemical imbalance, just like your problem might not be "just" pain. But even if the cause is external, and the "true solution" is external, the symptoms the external problem is causing in you might be too debilitating for you to pursue the external solution on your own, while you're still afflicted. That's when you need a crutch.

If you break your leg, walking on it enough to get it to heal is usually far too painful to do all on your own. So, you get crutches. Now you can get some support to lessen the pain, while still walking on it to help it heal. If you lost your job while you were in the hospital for the leg-break, the crutch can let you go back to work before you otherwise would, which can give you the motivation to keep pushing yourself to heal, rather than just sitting around. Once your leg has healed, you don't need the crutch.

If you're clinically depressed, going out and doing things you'd otherwise enjoy is hard. SSRIs and the like are a crutch that let you feel less pessimistic about your situation, so you can pursue real sources of happiness (getting a better job, finding a relationship, etc.) Once you've done those things, you might not need the crutch.

Sometimes, though, we need crutches for life. Once you're old enough to need a cane or a walker, you're never going to not need a cane or a walker. Some people are born with conditions that put them in a wheelchair for their entire lives. If your problem is inherent to your physiology, there's no external problem to solve--so you'll always need the crutch.

---

Here's the odd thing about neurotransmitter imbalances, though. I asked a psychiatrist friend of mine about whether, generally, his patients have obvious problems in their lives that could be possible causes of their symptoms, or whether they more often say things like "everything's great so I don't see why I'm so--". He said it was overwhelmingly the latter.

My pure guess to explain this data, is that something happened to our brain chemistry that paralleled the rise of near-/farsightedness as a genetic trait. After the rise of agriculture, sharp near/far vision stopped being something we had natural selection pressuring us to keep--and, unlike traits like height, it's hard to tell how well your partner can see, so it wasn't sexually selected, either. So the likelihood of your vision staying perfectly "in tune" with the reference point became pretty much random chance, with near-/far-sighted people mating with other near-/far-sighted people with no concern for the consequences.

So, just as our eyes have to be tuned to a certain reference point to work optimally, so do our neurotransmitter levels. And just like people don't much care if their partner can see well, people don't much care if their partner has strange moods sometimes (--in fact, some might prefer partners with a certain demeanor.) So we've let genetic drift and random crossovers take the place of selective pressure in determining our brain chemistry. A lot more people are born needing figurative wheelchairs than find themselves needing figurative crutches.

But a wheelchair is a bad metaphor, here, isn't it? A wheelchair is for someone who can't walk at all without it. Whereas, being slightly off your reference point, and using something to bring you back in line? Why, that's a lot more like wearing glasses!

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a young engineer-type with no exposure to the psych field, I had about the same opinion when I was in my early 20's. However, a few decades of real life later I've seen first-hand, successes and turnarounds for people who either found themselves in bad situations or were just plain genetically vulnerable. In fact, I'll go as far as saying that counseling or therapy are nothing compared to the difference that the r…

As a programmer and former EEG tech, all I can do is nod quietly. They could be way more scientific about their medication selection if they wanted to be [1][2] but most psychiatrists are overconfident in their own judgement. [1] http://www.ncneurocenter.com/eeg/eeg_reference.html [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_electroencephalogr...

The same is true of most parts of medicine. Evidence based practice is quite rare unfortunately.

At least the pills are -- at worst -- mostly harmless, the surgeons who cut at the drop of hat (viz. almost all of them) do far more damage.

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#68
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just obscene! All that markup over just the label. I understand that it takes R&D to develop new drugs, but the amount of profit sought by drug companies is stomach churning.

>amount of profit sought by drug companies is stomach churning What's the right amount of profit a company should seek? For reference, following are the latest reported profit margins of several companies: Eli Lilly: 20.34% AstraZeneca: 13.33% Novartis: 17.33% Apple: 19.53% Google: 18.11% Microsoft: 24.95% It's not at all clear to me that drug companies are somehow seeking more profits than other companies (or that t…

Those margins are reasonable, but they include advertising, and I don't think drug companies should advertise.

Remove advertising and reduce prices accordingly.

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#69
post #23

Good riddance. Psychiatry by and large is a sham field. Physicians who practice it love seeing themselves as artists who are experts in identifying the subtleties of human behavior. That's their way of saying there's very little underlying science guiding their practice. Many of the diagnoses given are pulled out of thin air and made to justify a patient's admission, or to appease a patient's desire to feel as if the…

>"We need better mechanical and abstract understanding of the mind before we douse it in chemicals"

That's what research is for and is doing, but in the meantime what you're suggesting is that we sit on the sidelines and watch those that need help suffer because what we know isn't up to your standard? So we're going to take your anecdotal experiences in the psychiatric community about how psychiatry is anecdotal and is thus largely discredited?

Would you really be willing to let millions of people suffer because of that hypocrisy? Very frightening.

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#70
post #23

Good riddance. Psychiatry by and large is a sham field. Physicians who practice it love seeing themselves as artists who are experts in identifying the subtleties of human behavior. That's their way of saying there's very little underlying science guiding their practice. Many of the diagnoses given are pulled out of thin air and made to justify a patient's admission, or to appease a patient's desire to feel as if the…

No, psychiatry is not a very, very loose and abstract field as much as it's an attempt to wrangle and understand a very, very loose and abstract subject, which is the essential nature of our thoughts and how we actionize them into behavior.

Criticism of its lack of rigor may be fair in many cases, but for you to call it a "sham field" is reactionary and completely inflammatory. Don't backpedal with "I don't want to discredit the entire field" when you're going to lead your comment with, "Good riddance."

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