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The psychiatric drug crisis

newyorker.com

21–30 of 153 posts

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#21

My ADHD medication Strattera costs $170 a month and since the generic version only saves me $20 causes serious nausea and vomiting I don't have any choice. And its one of the only medications you can't develop a tolerance for. Luckily I'm Canadian, working part time at a Canadian university where health insurance covers the costs.

For the last 18 years or so I have been taking some form of low cost Ritalin with a co-pay between 15-25 dollars. This ancient medication that is a generic costs 130 dollars a month and that is the negotiated rate! The money isn't going to research and it isn't going to manufacturing so where does it go?

You can get that ancient medication for a pittance, but it will be the immediate release form that has a harsh onset and a harsh withdrawal in 2 hours. You are paying for the formulation of the pills, which you evidently consider worth it.

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#22
I haven't read this entire article, but my experiences with a handful of anti-depressants is that they all are a placebo. Though not for profits. Sell people hope and promise of becoming "normal," and they buy it in the million.

Again this is my own personal experience in taking various anti-depressants for a few years. Overall what helped me was talking to other people and realizing were all nuts (deal with same issues) and yet very normal.

So if your dealing with depression and anxiety and are hiding it, from my experiences please do not. Please talk about it with as many people as possible; realize we are all the same and deal with the same similar issues!

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#23
Good riddance. Psychiatry by and large is a sham field. Physicians who practice it love seeing themselves as artists who are experts in identifying the subtleties of human behavior. That's their way of saying there's very little underlying science guiding their practice.

Many of the diagnoses given are pulled out of thin air and made to justify a patient's admission, or to appease a patient's desire to feel as if they have a treatable illness. I would ask psychiatrists I trained with to explain why a drug worked or why a disease developed. They would do nothing more than give me the same surface-level information we all know: SSRIs block serotonin reuptake, leading to more serotonin in the synaptic cleft that would then cause increased stimulation, and voila, you're not depressed. This is information anyone can attain with a google search. The majority of their knowledge dealt with pharmacological dynamics.

I sat in on a psychiatry conference one afternoon where the docs discussed the treatment of several patients. Never was a scientific article or concept uttered. It was all "well, let's try him on seroquel and olanzapine, let's also throw Paxil in there." It was evident that their treatment protocol was largely one of extremely unsupported trial-and-error based on very, very unique experiences, anecdotes, and preferences each psychiatrist had.

Now, I don't want to discredit the entire field. I do know friends and family who have benefited from psychiatric medications, although that could entirely be due to placebo effect. What needs to happen first is that we need to attain a much deeper understanding of how the brain works on the low and high levels, mechanically and abstractly. Mechanically so that we may develop effective meds, abstractly so that we may learn how to manipulate cognitive processes, like with what we see with CBT, which has worked wonders for many with depression -- no medication involved.

tl;dr: Psychiatry is a very, very loose and abstract field. You can't run any diagnostic tests on patients. It's mostly a field of educated guessing and confirmation bias. We need better mechanical and abstract understanding of the mind before we douse it in chemicals.

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>amount of profit sought by drug companies is stomach churning What's the right amount of profit a company should seek? For reference, following are the latest reported profit margins of several companies: Eli Lilly: 20.34% AstraZeneca: 13.33% Novartis: 17.33% Apple: 19.53% Google: 18.11% Microsoft: 24.95% It's not at all clear to me that drug companies are somehow seeking more profits than other companies (or that t…

> It's not at all clear to me that drug companies are somehow seeking more profits than other companies. Could it be high-level tax evasion ?

If it is, then why isn't everyone doing it? Are you saying that somehow AstraZeneca has wizardly accountants that Apple does not?

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#25
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obscene? What's the "correct" markup? I sell digital, single-player video games. My manufacturing cost is zero and markup is infinite.

Your marginal distribution cost is zero, but the manufacturing cost to design and develop the game is clearly not zero. The issue is that just because you can charge a lot doesn't mean you should. Although capitalism rarely works that way.

I think talking about capitalism, or rather, "free market", in the context of drug production is laughable. Free markets, as conventionally defined, have two characteristics:

1. Producers and consumers are both equally informed 2. There are so many producers and so many consumers that no single producer or no single consumer is able to appreciably change the market price

Neither of those assumptions hold with the the drug market. Drug makers are massively more informed about the benefits and side effects of their drugs than I am. And there aren't that many drug manufacturers - and ongoing mergers keep shrinking the pool. In reality, the drug market is a barely regulated oligopoly, where a few large players manipulate the price signal to coordinate behavior so that they can move in relative unison to screw over the consumer. It's just like oil companies or airlines.

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#26
Fun Fact: Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors, the class of drugs used to treat depression and anxiety disorders by increasing the availability of serotonin, have a mirror opposite: Tianeptine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianeptine), which acts as a Selective Serotonin Reuptake Enhancer.

Incredibly, this drug has also been effective at treating depression. That's right: two classes of drugs with polar opposite first-order effects are used to treat the same disorder, and both of them apparently work.

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#27
post #23

Good riddance. Psychiatry by and large is a sham field. Physicians who practice it love seeing themselves as artists who are experts in identifying the subtleties of human behavior. That's their way of saying there's very little underlying science guiding their practice. Many of the diagnoses given are pulled out of thin air and made to justify a patient's admission, or to appease a patient's desire to feel as if the…

> although that could entirely be due to placebo effect

If the drugs had no effect, then why are people (ab)using drugs like Adderall to improve cognition, etc?

A big problem with trying to make a science out of the brain, is that it can be very unique to the person. For example, in people that are blind since birth, the pathways in the brain that are normally used for visual processing can get re-purposed over a lifetime to be used for other things.

I'd almost say that the brain is sort of like an evolutionary algorithm. Given similar parameters, the results largely resemble each other, but alter things enough and the results can be way off.

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#28
Hackers can make huge money in psychology/psychiatry (both prescientific fields). Life logging and it's analysis - quantified self. Positive psychology would be the better angle to play it, unregulated, big money in the self-help culture. Mobile apps are the right medium for it. There was recent doc on it 'Monitor Me' by bbc horizon.

edit: to replyers, it didn't want to post links for everything, so

google 'monitor me bbc horizon youtube', 'quantified self', 'self help industry', 'positive psychology'

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#29
post #27
post #23

Good riddance. Psychiatry by and large is a sham field. Physicians who practice it love seeing themselves as artists who are experts in identifying the subtleties of human behavior. That's their way of saying there's very little underlying science guiding their practice. Many of the diagnoses given are pulled out of thin air and made to justify a patient's admission, or to appease a patient's desire to feel as if the…

> although that could entirely be due to placebo effect If the drugs had no effect, then why are people (ab)using drugs like Adderall to improve cognition, etc? A big problem with trying to make a science out of the brain, is that it can be very unique to the person. For example, in people that are blind since birth, the pathways in the brain that are normally used for visual processing can get re-purposed over a lif…

>If the drugs had no effect, then why are people (ab)using drugs like Adderall to improve cognition, etc?

Placebo effect is certainly an effect. But the claim is not that the drugs don't have an effect (though it's true, some work no more effective than a placebo), but that we have no sound explanation for their effects.

Re: The psychiatric drug crisis

#30
post #26

Fun Fact: Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors, the class of drugs used to treat depression and anxiety disorders by increasing the availability of serotonin, have a mirror opposite: Tianeptine ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianeptine ), which acts as a Selective Serotonin Reuptake Enhancer. Incredibly, this drug has also been effective at treating depression . That's right: two classes of drugs with polar opposi…

The molecule looks somewhat obscene.
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