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Epic, The Privacy Browser

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Re: Epic, The Privacy Browser

#111

Post by daemonk »

nrivadeneira wrote: post #11

I still can't figure out why my browsing data being sold is objectively a bad thing. I don't see how it makes my day-to-day worse in any way. There are plenty of smart people who feel that it's bad, so maybe I'm just missing something, and I'm open to sound logic that convinces me that it's going to make my life worse. Also, the example they make at the bottom asking the reader to imagine hundreds of people following…

Because it potentially encourages using the data in a technically wrong way. What I mean by "wrong" has nothing to do with morality. I mean "wrong" as in people who think they can predict behavior will over-interpret the data in a technically incorrect way and try to apply that model causing real harm. That might mean giving insurance companies an excuse to over-interpret health data to increase rates or law makers legislating discriminatory laws based on bad data analysis. It gives scam artists extra ammunition to peddle their crap.

Re: Epic, The Privacy Browser

#112

Post by berrycorp »

kllrnohj wrote: post #54
hannibal5 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it it gives companies advantage over you. For example banks and insurance companies want to know everything possible about you. So do potential employers. Profiling people and putting them into categories and calculating their risk profiles makes their position weaker. For example: Google "lump in the testicles" and browse medical sites. Then wait one week and try to get mortgage or insurance.

Except companies like Mozilla and Google (even Microsoft) don't give that data to those companies, and have no incentive to do so. Indeed, to a company like Google that would be corporate suicide as it would undermine their main source of revenue. Google's money comes from being a middle man, they want to keep their competitive advantage (your data to target ads) secret more than you do. So your scenario doesn't exis…

lots of toolbar companies and plugin companies sell your search data to websites like magnetic.com for search re-targetting. So even if they dont sell directly there are still many ways they can get there dirty hands on your data.

Re: Epic, The Privacy Browser

#113

Post by komar737 »

metastart wrote: post #12
M4v3R wrote: post #8

This is a nice initiative, but I would like to see the source code of this browser. Without it, I cannot be 100% sure that what Epic devs say is true and it's not an elaborate NSA trick to get our data :). No hard feelings, just in the light of current events as reported by NY Times/Guardian about NSA backdooring popular apps and crypto implementations the paranoid inside me has gotten more active lately.

Source Code coming soon. We've made changes to many chromium files & we're a small team, so haven't had a chance to open source it all in a manageable way. In the meantime, don't hesitate to write us if you want to see any code or know any changes we've made. Or use Wireshark to see requests going in/out! Our philosophy is exactly that -- we don't want you to "trust" us, it should be private by design -- that's how E…

Hidden Reflex? something hidden in your company name

Re: Epic, The Privacy Browser

#114

Post by nrivadeneira »

megantic wrote: post #106
nrivadeneira wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have control of my browsing habits. That's my point - I'm not terribly worried about if companies see what I do, so it doesn't change my behavior. Thus, I don't see how this point shows that tracking makes my life worse.

Are you saying that it is ok to globally disregard privacy, profile users, sell their data/profile without them knowing or getting a part of this profit because it doesn't make your life worse ?

I don't think I said anything about global disregard. I asked why I should personally care. It seems like there are a lot of people trying to tell me I should care, but I did not once say that others should not care.

Re: Epic, The Privacy Browser

#115

Post by nrivadeneira »

InXorWeTrust wrote: post #96
nrivadeneira wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if I am? Everyone has varying degrees of privacy preference. Who's to say that any end of the spectrum is wrong or right? Mine just happens to fall on the more liberal end.

You're right, there is a spectrum of preference. But just because some are ok with it, doesn't mean all of us. Why encapsulate everyone under the same policy of track everything? On the Do Not Track, I think turning it on by default is a bad idea. It gives companies no incentive to follow it and abide by it. (Yes, they have no reason to abide by it right now either). There is no law that says they have to abide by it…

As i mentioned to another commentor, I don't think we should encapsulate everyone under the same policies nor do I think everyone should feel the same. I believe it's OK for people to want a lot of privacy. However, through this whole NSA discussion, I've seen a large amount of discussion on HN basically saying that anyone who doesn't desire a high level of privacy is wrong or ignorant. That's certainly what Zuider's comment about the possibility of me saying "I'm not doing anything wrong..." asserts. I think it's more ignorant to believe that everyone needs to have the same values and beliefs as you regarding privacy.

Re: Epic, The Privacy Browser

#116

Post by nrivadeneira »

megantic wrote: post #107
nrivadeneira wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I don't agree with this. If I walk into (or around) a Best Buy and they capture my movement on a security camera, are they stealing from me? Technically, they are recording data of my movement. Also, stealing generally infers that the victim is left without the stolen item. That's why we don't call piracy stealing. So, if anything, trackers are 'pirating' my browsing information and possibly reselling it. Truthful…

1) we'll take another example, let's say you have your own religious views and those get collected in a database, seemingly no harm done here. Then comes a newly elected government with different religious views who decides people holding the same religious views as yours should wear a distinctive sign to warn the public, then to gather those people in camps, then starts mass killing those people on an industrial sca…

Wow....you just took web analytics and tracking and somehow morphed it into the holocaust. That's probably the biggest slippery slope argument I've ever seen in my life.

Re: Epic, The Privacy Browser

#117

Post by nrivadeneira »

megantic wrote: post #104
nrivadeneira wrote: post #11

I still can't figure out why my browsing data being sold is objectively a bad thing. I don't see how it makes my day-to-day worse in any way. There are plenty of smart people who feel that it's bad, so maybe I'm just missing something, and I'm open to sound logic that convinces me that it's going to make my life worse. Also, the example they make at the bottom asking the reader to imagine hundreds of people following…

That's probably because you don't grasp what can be done with this data, and for how long this data will be around. The bottom line is in the relation between privacy and freedom. There's a few point to raise here: how do you object or prevent the sale of your data ? how much of the money from the sale of your data went to your pockets ? what control do you have on your sold data over time ? Then it's not only about…

I'll ignore your belittling comment and ask you to clarify what exactly you suppose will be done with the data about my browsing habits. I'll return the sentiment, however, and suggest that maybe you don't grasp that there are people who do understand and are not quite as scared as you. I generally don't live my life in fear, regardless of what dangers loom around the corner, known or unknown. This is the second time you've correlated internet browsing tracking to Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. It amazes me that you even use the internet with such enormously exaggerated fears.

I'll go further to suggest that you are unaware that knowledge, intellect, understanding, and the capability to grasp these concepts is in no way correlated with susceptibility to fear and worry.

Re: Epic, The Privacy Browser

#118

Post by roflcopterlawl »

nrivadeneira wrote: post #11

I still can't figure out why my browsing data being sold is objectively a bad thing. I don't see how it makes my day-to-day worse in any way. There are plenty of smart people who feel that it's bad, so maybe I'm just missing something, and I'm open to sound logic that convinces me that it's going to make my life worse. Also, the example they make at the bottom asking the reader to imagine hundreds of people following…

yeah because when i search for ingrown hairs on google, amazon emails me about products that remove ingrown hairs.

Re: Epic, The Privacy Browser

#119

Post by dontstylemycss »

nrivadeneira wrote: post #114
megantic wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that it is ok to globally disregard privacy, profile users, sell their data/profile without them knowing or getting a part of this profit because it doesn't make your life worse ?

I don't think I said anything about global disregard. I asked why I should personally care. It seems like there are a lot of people trying to tell me I should care, but I did not once say that others should not care.

Well the reasoning is quite simple actually, if you care for freedom then you should care for privacy. Without privacy there's no freedom possible.

Maybe read some of the many posts around about privacy and freedom and rebuttal of the "I don't do anything wrong so I don't have to hide" argument: you could start with the schneier's blog: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/05/the_value_of_...

But let me try to make a point of why you should personally care even though you don't know or understand why. This is a case of closing the barn door after the horse is gone, if you later learn the hard way you should have cared and go the extra step of protecting your data, you couldn't go back and get your data back. And the sad reality is that if you have to learn this way, it means that history has indeed repeated itself again and you're enjoying living under a tyranny.

Re: Epic, The Privacy Browser

#120

Post by dontstylemycss »

nrivadeneira wrote: post #116
megantic wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) we'll take another example, let's say you have your own religious views and those get collected in a database, seemingly no harm done here. Then comes a newly elected government with different religious views who decides people holding the same religious views as yours should wear a distinctive sign to warn the public, then to gather those people in camps, then starts mass killing those people on an industrial sca…

Wow....you just took web analytics and tracking and somehow morphed it into the holocaust. That's probably the biggest slippery slope argument I've ever seen in my life.

This is obviously an extreme example, but it's valid nonetheless. nazi germany had to build the database (thanks IBM) they needed, a future nazi, fascists or the like government wouldn't have to, those databases already exists in much more details nazi germany would have dreamed of (facebook seems to know you're gay before you do or your family does [1]).

But this nazi example is one everybody can relate to because we're all familiar with it. But if this is too strong we could go a bit further in history and talked about richelieu "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged." and the current state of us law [2].

[1]: http://americablog.com/2013/03/facebook-might-know-youre-gay... [2]: http://www.harveysilverglate.com/Books/ThreeFeloniesaDay.asp...

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