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Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

sciencebasedmedicine.org

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Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#31

Post by auctiontheory »

Yes, I think we should all be vaccinated, as the powers that be confidently tell us.

And as a consumer of medicine, I observe that doctors are equally confident when they really don't know what they're talking about, and when their opinions aren't substantiated by science. (The command to wear padded running shoes, for instance.)

And I know that the CIA organized a fake "vaccination drive" to get Osama bin Laden.

So I understand why people who might not have a scientific education choose not to believe the vaccination story they're given by their government.

Saying it louder and more often won't help.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#32

Post by altero »

tjogin wrote: post #27
altero wrote: post #22

There is also other side of vaccination when pharma industry pushes untested and ineffective serum. Mostly it is for viruses (hint: virus mutates too fast and vaccination is practically useless). Great example is bird/pig flu, serum was untested and used only thanks to massive hype. More people died from vaccination than actual flu. And best part are doctors which refused to have themselves vaccinated :-) disclaimer:…

How do you know that bird/pig flu wouldn't have had more severe impact if it wasn't for the vaccinations?

Large part of population was not vaccinated. Also some countries did not provide vaccination at all. Dead were mostly related to overall fitness rather than some magic virus.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#33

Post by laughfactory »

sliverstorm wrote: post #18
sitharus wrote: post #16

I've had the fun experience of debating with anti-vaccine people. Outside of the religious 'god will protect us' line, which I can't really argue with as it's a matter of faith, the vaccines cause autism line keeps coming up. Unfortunately for us a condition that we don't really understand is far more prevalent than the side-effects of preventable diseases. I've never met anyone who's experienced post-polio syndrome…

The folks who skip out on vaccination are (consciously or not) doing one or both of the following: 1) Counting on the herd immunity provided by everyone else to keep them safe 2) Pretending that the diseases which are being vaccinated against "really weren't all that bad" or maybe "didn't happen often"

Y'all are totally overlooking that there is a broad swath of the population that is intelligently selecting vaccinations based on current research indicating which vaccines pass the cost/benefit test. Not all vaccines are created equal--including some that are intended to solve for the same thing. And all too many who blab their opinion on pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine do so with a minimum of research and evidence to support their opinion.

Here I hear a lot of pro-vaccine chest pounding. Sure there are anti-vaccine myths just as their are pro-vaccine myths. Some vaccines provide almost no benefit and entail fairly significant risks.

As in most things, vaccination is not an all or nothing proposition and it's a fallacy to suggest it is.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#34

Post by altero »

kevinwuhoo wrote: post #26
altero wrote: post #22

There is also other side of vaccination when pharma industry pushes untested and ineffective serum. Mostly it is for viruses (hint: virus mutates too fast and vaccination is practically useless). Great example is bird/pig flu, serum was untested and used only thanks to massive hype. More people died from vaccination than actual flu. And best part are doctors which refused to have themselves vaccinated :-) disclaimer:…

[citation needed] Edit: I was doing academic influenza drug discovery research at the height of the H5N1 threat. 59% morality rate [1] is no "hype". Your generalization of viruses mutating "too fast" is a false clause. Vaccination against influenza isn't "useless", it's actually effective [2]. [1]: http://www.who.int/influenza/human_animal_interface/EN_GIP_2... [2]: https://www.landesbioscience.com/article/19917/full…

Q8: Is a vaccine available to prevent human infection with H5N1avian influenza?

Candidate vaccines to prevent H5N1 infection have been developed, but they are not ready for widespread use.

http://www.who.int/influenza/human_animal_interface/avian_in...

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#35

Post by sliverstorm »

rhizome wrote: post #29
sliverstorm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people's own minds provide some of that effect. Firstly, secretly wondering if the numbers aren't being exaggerated for effect and that sort of thinking. Secondly, it's difficult to really wrap your head around a disease that killed a third of the population. It's so ridiculous it's hard to fathom.

Polio existed in the US within the memories of many people still alive.

Sure, but polio was virtually eliminated in America by 1980, and how old were today's non-vaccinating parents in 1980? Or 1953, for that matter- the year of the last polio outbreak?

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#36

Post by jlgreco »

rhizome wrote: post #29
sliverstorm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people's own minds provide some of that effect. Firstly, secretly wondering if the numbers aren't being exaggerated for effect and that sort of thinking. Secondly, it's difficult to really wrap your head around a disease that killed a third of the population. It's so ridiculous it's hard to fathom.

Polio existed in the US within the memories of many people still alive.

There are people still alive today that lived through the Spanish Flu. They are pretty damn old today and they were young then, but there are many more people alive today that lost immediate family members to it and many more that lost extended family members to it. That shit wiped out something like 5% of the world.

Yet even in this thread we see people who seem to think that flus are a laughing matter.

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#37

Post by btilly »

laughfactory wrote: post #33
sliverstorm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The folks who skip out on vaccination are (consciously or not) doing one or both of the following: 1) Counting on the herd immunity provided by everyone else to keep them safe 2) Pretending that the diseases which are being vaccinated against "really weren't all that bad" or maybe "didn't happen often"

Y'all are totally overlooking that there is a broad swath of the population that is intelligently selecting vaccinations based on current research indicating which vaccines pass the cost/benefit test. Not all vaccines are created equal--including some that are intended to solve for the same thing. And all too many who blab their opinion on pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine do so with a minimum of research and evidence to s…

No, we are not overlooking that. Some of us have looked into the evidence and figured out that people who convince themselves that they are "intelligently selecting vaccinations" are in fact making poor choices.

What do you say to someone making poor choices when you know their choices are poor, and they are so convinced they are right that they won't listen?

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#38

Post by Volpe »

auctiontheory wrote: post #31

Yes, I think we should all be vaccinated, as the powers that be confidently tell us. And as a consumer of medicine, I observe that doctors are equally confident when they really don't know what they're talking about, and when their opinions aren't substantiated by science. (The command to wear padded running shoes, for instance.) And I know that the CIA organized a fake "vaccination drive" to get Osama bin Laden. So…

> The command to wear padded running shoes, for instance.

Physio's I've spoken to describe the pros and cons of both (barefoot, and padded) and let me decide. What command are you referring to?

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#39

Post by Volpe »

laughfactory wrote: post #33
sliverstorm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The folks who skip out on vaccination are (consciously or not) doing one or both of the following: 1) Counting on the herd immunity provided by everyone else to keep them safe 2) Pretending that the diseases which are being vaccinated against "really weren't all that bad" or maybe "didn't happen often"

Y'all are totally overlooking that there is a broad swath of the population that is intelligently selecting vaccinations based on current research indicating which vaccines pass the cost/benefit test. Not all vaccines are created equal--including some that are intended to solve for the same thing. And all too many who blab their opinion on pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine do so with a minimum of research and evidence to s…

Can you show me a "almost no benefit" vaccine that has "significant risks" that is currently in use?

> Here I hear a lot of pro-vaccine chest pounding.

You say that as you pound your chest about "informed opinion" without providing any information... so it's just (uninformed) opinion (right now).

Re: Infectious disease doesn't care why you're unvaccinated

#40

Post by pdkl95 »

I've been thinking about "Herd immunity" a lot recently, but not with respect to /biology/. The concept that if we easily become overpowered by a threat if do not maintain an active defence against it is true in most political issues, too[1].

In the current NSA drama, for example, we are fortunate enough to HAVE a "vaccine" against many of the problems: encryption. It's not always something that can be used (just like vaccines), but if those are rare enough most of the abuse-of-power problems wouldn't even be attempted.

When a certain critical mass of people start skipping that protection, a tempting target is created and the problems com back, often much faster than expected. If I could just think of a clever epithet similar to "antivaxxers" to use when referring to someone who think they can skip encryption because "they aren't doing anything wrong" ("won't get $DISEASE").

[1]: insert traditional speculation about meme-vs-gene here

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