Google encrypts data amid backlash against NSA spying • Hacker News Board

Re: Google encrypts data amid backlash against NSA spying

#91

Post by rgbrenner » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 4:31 AM UTC

raldi wrote: post #52

rgbrenner wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

has never weakened its encryption systems to make snooping easier Up until today, Google didn't even encrypt the data. So it's kind of hard to weaken something you weren't even using. And then to go on to equate it as a "personal honor".. you've got to be kidding me.

> Up until today, Google didn't even encrypt the data. That's not what the article says. The new encryption is specifically for backend datacenter-to-datacenter traffic over leased lines. But even before that project, there was lots of strong encryption being used all over Google: to encrypt user data on servers' hard drives, to encrypt data going between browsers and servers, encrypting tape backups before sending t…

Your critic is valid and I completely agree... but I standby what I wrote with regard to their traffic over leased lines.

'We just sent data in the clear over leased lines so the NSA could read whatever they wanted. But the encryption we never used was never weakened.'

This is nonsense.

Not only that, but when the data is transmitted, that is exactly when Google has the least amount of control over it... ie: that's when encryption is the most important. Yet, they chose not to encrypt the data, and then give everyone a story about their 'personal honor' of keeping things secure. This is a joke.

Re: Google encrypts data amid backlash against NSA spying

#92

Post by packetslave » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 4:40 AM UTC

rgbrenner wrote: post #91

raldi wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Up until today, Google didn't even encrypt the data. That's not what the article says. The new encryption is specifically for backend datacenter-to-datacenter traffic over leased lines. But even before that project, there was lots of strong encryption being used all over Google: to encrypt user data on servers' hard drives, to encrypt data going between browsers and servers, encrypting tape backups before sending t…

Your critic is valid and I completely agree... but I standby what I wrote with regard to their traffic over leased lines. 'We just sent data in the clear over leased lines so the NSA could read whatever they wanted. But the encryption we never used was never weakened.' This is nonsense. Not only that, but when the data is transmitted, that is exactly when Google has the least amount of control over it... ie: that's w…

Depends on your definition of "leased lines". A privately-operated layer 1 backbone over dedicated dark fiber has traditionally been considered to be pretty secure (up until recently, anyway)

Re: Google encrypts data amid backlash against NSA spying

#93

Post by saalweachter » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 5:02 AM UTC

ilyanep wrote: post #72

chris_mahan wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Against the NSA? The same NSA we ask to intercept Russian, Chinese, Japanese, German, and Iranian encrypted Internet traffic? (To name a few. I'm sure the French are in there too.) Russia and China, I am sure, have enough smart people working on their cyber defenses that the NSA would have to be very, very, very good to penetrate those defenses. And if indeed they are, then do you think Google stands a chance?

Do we think that Google (which boasts among current and former employees: Joshua Bloch, Guido van Rossum, Sebastian Thrun, Luis von Ahn, and that's just off the top of my head) might have some superstar cryptologists in there with equal or greater talent than people working for the Russian government? Why would that be so unbelievable?

Don't forget Vint Cerf.

Re: Google encrypts data amid backlash against NSA spying

#94

Post by saalweachter » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 5:05 AM UTC

brown9-2 wrote: post #26

Zigurd wrote: post #5

> Encrypting information flowing among data centers will not make it impossible for intelligence agencies to snoop on individual users of Google services, nor will it have any effect on legal requirements that the company comply with court orders or valid national security requests for data. How does this do anything about pervasive NSA spying? The NSA has broken SSL and VPNs by corrupting the CAs and the VPN vendors…

How is ssl broken when many different ciphers can be used?

Bruce Schneier recently suggested that encryption-the-math wasn't broken so much as encryption-the-implementation. The math is pure, abstract, and pristine, but the implementation is not. Hacks, lies, and backdoors. He strongly hinted not to trust anything you can't see the source for.

Re: Google encrypts data amid backlash against NSA spying

#95

Post by saalweachter » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 5:13 AM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #83

rayiner wrote: post #74

I can't believe traffic between data centers wasn't already encrypted.

Eh. If you own the whole fiber from place to place, you might be lulled into thinking the data never leaves your premises.

Yeah, there's always a dividing line.

Between two servers in the same rack? Between two racks in the same datacenter? Between two datacenters in the same physical complex? Between two complexes connected by fiber you installed yourself?

If the security state keeps on keeping on, I expect companies which care about privacy to keep tightening it in. One day not long from now it might be considered ludicrous to transfer data from one server to another server within the same datacenter unencrypted. One day not long after that we may perfect secure multi-party computation, and a server might perform meaningful computation upon an encrypted dataset without any ability to decrypt it.

The goalposts are moving.

Re: Google encrypts data amid backlash against NSA spying

#96

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 5:18 AM UTC

magicalist wrote: post #61

obituary_latte wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If nothing else, it reminds people that it's going on. Which is a good thing. Myself, with adblockXYZ installed, often forget or don't notice. And when these do come up, I'm grateful because it reminds me to stop being a lazy bastard and set up an email server (as I've done many times for others) for myself. I appreciate that.

I guess. There are plenty of other people in this thread who have brought up the fact that if your email service can read your email you are inherently vulnerable without quoting the plaintiff's attorney in a suit about the practice talking to ABC news . Talk about your lowest common denominator. I didn't come here to be propogandized at, so, yes, I will object to the dumbing down of debate to appeals to emotion (esp…

[deleted]

Re: Google encrypts data amid backlash against NSA spying

#97

Post by jka » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 5:30 AM UTC

niels_olson wrote: post #82

jka wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google (and other organizations) collecting and securing such vast troves of information -- and building the technology to analyze it quickly -- obviously makes them hugely valuable to attackers and defenders alike, since the data they are storing is the very information that attackers/defenders try to keep from each other. Encrypting it and securing it very well at a technology level means that the human element (I'…

I'm not aware of much successful recruiting. Most moles turn on their own. The game for the intel guys is like baseball: a lot of waiting and then serious hustle to make sure a fresh mole gets trained, vetted, rendered effective without getting caught.

Depressingly makes it sound like an everyday thing which is just monitored for - makes sense I suppose given how many information sinks there are nowadays.

Re: Google encrypts data amid backlash against NSA spying

#98

Post by randartie » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 5:34 AM UTC

Regarding people making comments about not seeing why google wasn't already doing this, it's common for datacenters to do DB replication over unencrypted channels, which is what was going on here.

Re: Google encrypts data amid backlash against NSA spying

#99

Post by packetslave » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 5:54 AM UTC

ilyanep wrote: post #72

chris_mahan wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Against the NSA? The same NSA we ask to intercept Russian, Chinese, Japanese, German, and Iranian encrypted Internet traffic? (To name a few. I'm sure the French are in there too.) Russia and China, I am sure, have enough smart people working on their cyber defenses that the NSA would have to be very, very, very good to penetrate those defenses. And if indeed they are, then do you think Google stands a chance?

Do we think that Google (which boasts among current and former employees: Joshua Bloch, Guido van Rossum, Sebastian Thrun, Luis von Ahn, and that's just off the top of my head) might have some superstar cryptologists in there with equal or greater talent than people working for the Russian government? Why would that be so unbelievable?

I'd add folks like Adam Langley, Damien Miller, and Michal Zalewski to that list.

Re: Google encrypts data amid backlash against NSA spying

#100

Post by packetslave » Sat, Sep 07, 2013, 5:57 AM UTC

anxiousest wrote: post #9

ganeumann wrote: post #2

But if they can encrypt the data so the NSA can't read it--that is, if the NSA can't force them to reveal the data--then why were they revealing it in the first place?

I assume you mean encrypting data at rest since this development takes care of all in transit encryption, well, because of ads, analytics, other predictive data intensive services like "Google Now" etc.

You can still encrypt data at rest (on spinning or flash memory) and use it for jobs like these. It's just decrypted while in RAM for use.