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A List Of Children Killed By Drone Strikes In Pakistan and Yemen

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Re: A List Of Children Killed By Drone Strikes In Pakistan and Yemen

#21

Post by prius770 »

MartinCron wrote: post #14
csense wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the wrong comparison to make. AFAIK we're not launching those drone strikes to kill some Middle Eastern children in retaliation for our children that died on Sep. 11. Instead, we're taking actions in the Middle East, which we know will result in the deaths of a few [1] children today, in hopes of disrupting terrorist capabilities to prevent the future deaths of a lot [1] of children in terrorist attacks tomorr…

This makes the optimistic assumption that drone strikes can kill terrorists faster than it can recruit them. You may be right, but imagine for a moment how you would feel if another country were operating deadly flying robots around your children.

Why do you conveniently ignore terrorists blatantly launching missiles from elementary schools?

Re: A List Of Children Killed By Drone Strikes In Pakistan and Yemen

#22

Post by dragonwriter »

prius770 wrote: post #20
dragonwriter wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In other words, you should really be comparing to the children who would have died from terrorist actions if we hadn't launched those wars. Is there any evidence whcih provides more than weak and highly-speculative support for the claim that launching the wars has done anything to reduce the number of children (or any other class of victims) killed in terrorist attacks compared to what it would have been without th…

Yes, fewer civilians/children are dying from wars every year.

1. Where is the evidence for that claimed outcome?

2. Where is the evidence that that outcome is caused by the US-led wars?

Re: A List Of Children Killed By Drone Strikes In Pakistan and Yemen

#23

Post by bcoates »

lysurgic wrote: post #3

and is there a list of children murdered by Muslim extremists in the Middle East? in the world?

I'm gonna make my standard objection here: there is a popular western conception that terrorism is caused by "extremism" but the evidence for this is lacking. Relatively devout Muslims who practice stricter interpretations of Islam are not more predisposed to violence than those who are more casual about the whole thing. In a randomized controlled trial, sending Pakistanis on Hajj made them both more devout in practice and less supportive of conflict with non-Muslims.

http://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/3659699/Kremer_Es...

Re: A List Of Children Killed By Drone Strikes In Pakistan and Yemen

#24

Post by prius770 »

thex86 wrote: post #7
lysurgic wrote: post #3

and is there a list of children murdered by Muslim extremists in the Middle East? in the world?

So just because that happens, we should overlook the fact that there are drones killing innocent children everyday sanctioned by the United States? You seem to be the type of person that says, "What if X is bad? Look at Y, which suits my agenda." Things like this creates more terrorism and more extremism. You may not realize, but it's not a nice thing to see your children and loved ones being killed by planes from th…

Terrorists who launch attacks from neighborhood schools should be ignored, right?

Re: A List Of Children Killed By Drone Strikes In Pakistan and Yemen

#25

Post by prius770 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #22
prius770 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, fewer civilians/children are dying from wars every year.

1. Where is the evidence for that claimed outcome? 2. Where is the evidence that that outcome is caused by the US-led wars?

http://www.npr.org/2013/05/31/175619007/is-the-world-a-less-...

Re: A List Of Children Killed By Drone Strikes In Pakistan and Yemen

#26

Post by nitrogen »

rayiner wrote: post #13
InclinedPlane wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murder for murder is the way that vendettas and feuds continue for decades, centuries, and even millenia. It's how one death turns into ten then a hundred then thousands then millions. That's not how civilized people should approach violence or warfare, even when violence may be justified. Look at the aftermath of WWII, for example, many of the most bitter enemies (such as the US and Japan) forged bonds of friendship…

The difference is that the US, Japan, and Germany were civilized and had something to lose from continued war. Tribes in the mountains of Pakistan don't.

So instead of continuing to fight them, we should give them more to lose.

Re: A List Of Children Killed By Drone Strikes In Pakistan and Yemen

#27

Post by _delirium »

bcoates wrote: post #15
zerr wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but your generic excuse works for any war crime out there. EDIT: Or any other crime against humanity. Nazis did holocaust for the "great good". This same reason was used for many communist crimes as well.

The unsatisfying response to this is that circumstances matter, and long lists of names without context do not give the sort of information that would allow one to act.

I don't think this project's lists are aimed at a full analysis of the situation, but just one piece of information: reminding people that there is significant collateral damage, and innocent people killed have names/etc., rather than just being units in some kind of RTS game.

People may decide that's unfortunate but ultimately still the right decision; as you note, it's not the only piece of information. But right now many people are not making that decision actively. I haven't surveyed people formally, but in my discussions around the subject very few people guess the death tolls are anywhere near the real numbers. Many people have the impression that, yes, the U.S. strikes are imperfect, but generally accurate and with only a handful of innocent people occasionally being killed.

Re: A List Of Children Killed By Drone Strikes In Pakistan and Yemen

#28

Post by nitrogen »

prius770 wrote: post #19
InclinedPlane wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murder for murder is the way that vendettas and feuds continue for decades, centuries, and even millenia. It's how one death turns into ten then a hundred then thousands then millions. That's not how civilized people should approach violence or warfare, even when violence may be justified. Look at the aftermath of WWII, for example, many of the most bitter enemies (such as the US and Japan) forged bonds of friendship…

So we should let Islamist terrorists continue launching missiles from schools?

This is the kind of question I would expect to see in a highschool debate club when a debater is losing the argument. It's an emotionally loaded red herring which is designed to derail discussion, not further it.

Re: A List Of Children Killed By Drone Strikes In Pakistan and Yemen

#29

Post by thex86 »

prius770 wrote: post #24
thex86 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just because that happens, we should overlook the fact that there are drones killing innocent children everyday sanctioned by the United States? You seem to be the type of person that says, "What if X is bad? Look at Y, which suits my agenda." Things like this creates more terrorism and more extremism. You may not realize, but it's not a nice thing to see your children and loved ones being killed by planes from th…

Terrorists who launch attacks from neighborhood schools should be ignored, right?

Funny how you created a fake account just for these comments.

I am in no way defending terrorism. I am saying we should look at all of it, instead of saying, "What about X?"

Re: A List Of Children Killed By Drone Strikes In Pakistan and Yemen

#30

Post by thex86 »

prius770 wrote: post #21
MartinCron wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes the optimistic assumption that drone strikes can kill terrorists faster than it can recruit them. You may be right, but imagine for a moment how you would feel if another country were operating deadly flying robots around your children.

Why do you conveniently ignore terrorists blatantly launching missiles from elementary schools?

You keep throwing argument, please back it with facts.
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