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Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

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Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#71

Post by yters »

PieSquared wrote: post #38
ZitchDog wrote: post #6

I cheated a lot in high school, a couple times in college. I don't feel guilty, but now I know the only person I cheated was myself.

I think it depends on the form of cheating. Cheating on anything you can do through learning - yeah, that's cheating yourself. But (in my high school at least) I've noticed that many homework assignments are pure busyword: there is no intellectual value to be gained through their completion, and all you are doing is wasting your time when in reality you could put it to a better use. In those cases, I would not feel g…

If some work isn't worthwhile, then doing it poorly won't matter in the long run. On the other hand, if it is worthwhile work, then doing it poorly is bad for you.

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#72

Post by GHFigs »

Confusion wrote: post #70
GHFigs wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're equating 'cheating' with 'lacking knowledge/skill' I said nothing of the kind. I am saying it is an unfair advantage in obtaining academic opportunity over equally or more capable students who are more honest. Even between two students of exactly equal ability, the dishonest student has the advantage. For instance, someone may be on their way to becoming a very good physicist and doesn't care for compulsory ge…

I am saying it is an unfair advantage in obtaining academic opportunity That's a US-specific problem. Here anyone that has obtained a degree can enroll in pretty much any course at any university/college. What part of this implies they deserve a high grade in German? People that cheat seldomnly have high grade averages in the subject they cheat in. The just manage to pass the subject. But that's also a US specific pr…

It is not a US-specific problem just because it isn't a problem in your locale, nor would being US-specific invalidate anything I've said.

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#73

Post by PieSquared »

GHFigs wrote: post #68
PieSquared wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're hurting no one through your so-called "dishonesty." Do you have a better solution? The system cannot be fixed to a complete extent quickly. My solution is to avoid busywork classes and get high grades in the busywork classes so I can just skip assignments instead as often as possible. Do you have a better one?

You're hurting no one through your so-called "dishonesty." Not true. You harm the honest students that are denied academic opportunity because dishonest students have higher grades. And by the way, it isn't "so-called" dishonesty, it is by definition dishonest. Whether you regard it as ethical or not does not change the meaning of the word. Do you have a better solution? What you propose is not a solution at all. It…

In terms of what it does for me, it's a solution, since it gets rid of the problem I have. Isn't it?

Either way, I'd like to hear other solutions. I'm not content wasting my life away with busywork assigned in school, and I do not like the fact that mild academic dishonesty is necessary to combat that, so I would gladly listen to other suggestions.

By the way, 'mild' is mild. I'm not talking about stealing code or copying projects or anything. I'm talking about (every so often) asking a friend for answers to questions on near-worthless homework assignments.

As a side note, I'm not exactly sure why I'm being downvoted. Is there a more reasonable way to discuss this?

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#74

Post by perokreco »

Of course I did. Everybody did. It is what made school fun to go to. The entire class had people specialize in different areas, for example I was in charge of CS and English, my best friend of Chemistry and so on. Then we would get together before school and copy each other assignments before class started. Therefore the entire class worked together in order for everybody to earn higher grades, pass the class and spend as little time as possible on homework. In exams we would make students good in that subject sit close to those who are not and help them out.

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#75

Post by perokreco »

GHFigs wrote: post #68
PieSquared wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're hurting no one through your so-called "dishonesty." Do you have a better solution? The system cannot be fixed to a complete extent quickly. My solution is to avoid busywork classes and get high grades in the busywork classes so I can just skip assignments instead as often as possible. Do you have a better one?

You're hurting no one through your so-called "dishonesty." Not true. You harm the honest students that are denied academic opportunity because dishonest students have higher grades. And by the way, it isn't "so-called" dishonesty, it is by definition dishonest. Whether you regard it as ethical or not does not change the meaning of the word. Do you have a better solution? What you propose is not a solution at all. It…

The fact that somebody is denied academic opportunity is not the fault of the person who cheats but of the social/economic system that does not allow everybody to have academic opportunities.

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#76

Post by nazgulnarsil »

mattdennewitz wrote: post #62
nazgulnarsil wrote: post #41

I'm not sure what to mark because I don't cheat on my own material but other students pay me to help them cheat.

replace "i dont cheat on my own material" with "drink" and "help them cheat" with "buy beer".

maybe you should have used a murder example, because I don't see the problem with minors drinking on private property if their parents don't mind.

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#77

Post by GHFigs »

PieSquared wrote: post #73
GHFigs wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're hurting no one through your so-called "dishonesty." Not true. You harm the honest students that are denied academic opportunity because dishonest students have higher grades. And by the way, it isn't "so-called" dishonesty, it is by definition dishonest. Whether you regard it as ethical or not does not change the meaning of the word. Do you have a better solution? What you propose is not a solution at all. It…

In terms of what it does for me, it's a solution, since it gets rid of the problem I have. Isn't it? Either way, I'd like to hear other solutions. I'm not content wasting my life away with busywork assigned in school, and I do not like the fact that mild academic dishonesty is necessary to combat that, so I would gladly listen to other suggestions. By the way, 'mild' is mild. I'm not talking about stealing code or co…

In terms of what it does for me, it's a solution, since it gets rid of the problem I have.

You could say the same for theft, robbery, and murder. At some point in deciding how to act you must consider the effect your actions have on others. I call it an exploit because it exploits the broken nature of the system which rewards dishonest behavior. Your "solution" merely perpetuates the problem for everyone.

academic dishonesty is necessary

It is not necessary to achieve either of the aims you have described (not wasting your life away and getting into a decent university). The former can be achieved by not doing the work. The latter can be achieved by doing the work to earn adequate grades. Neither requires dishonesty.

It is not even necessary to achieve both. Withdrawing from school and getting a GED avoids wasting one's life away there, and getting into a decent college can be facilitated by enrolling in a community college and obtaining the appropriate test scores. This does not require dishonesty, wasting time, or forgoing educational opportunity.

I'm not exactly sure why I'm being downvoted.

FWIW, it isn't me. I don't like drive-by downvoting either.

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#78

Post by neilc »

falien wrote: post #49
jerf wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The same holds for the contract you have with a school." You can not have a "contract" with the school. The student is being coerced, to a degree not dissimilar to a prisoner. (I am not saying that a student is exactly the same as a prisoner, because I can think of many relevant differences, I'm just saying the coercion level is similar; it is unilateral, the scope is huge, and there is no way out for most of it.) T…

As another commenter suggested, there is a stark difference between high school and universities. high schools in the US can be justifiably compared to prisons in this sense, but universities cannot.

I think the comparison with prisons is pretty bunk. Students and their parents get to choose which school they'd like to attend; for many people, that means an enormous amount of school choice. With home schooling in many states and the GED, students have still more choice. And of course, you're free to drop out -- you just have to be willing to accept the consequences.

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#79

Post by ZitchDog »

PieSquared wrote: post #38
ZitchDog wrote: post #6

I cheated a lot in high school, a couple times in college. I don't feel guilty, but now I know the only person I cheated was myself.

I think it depends on the form of cheating. Cheating on anything you can do through learning - yeah, that's cheating yourself. But (in my high school at least) I've noticed that many homework assignments are pure busyword: there is no intellectual value to be gained through their completion, and all you are doing is wasting your time when in reality you could put it to a better use. In those cases, I would not feel g…

I would have said the exact same thing at the time. As it turns out, many of the "busywork" tasks are things that you'll want to be able to do quickly, easily, and accurately as you build on your skillset.

Repetition is how you optimize your brain. Quick and accurate execution of inner-loop code is critical. The more you can optimize, the more effective of a tool your brain will be.

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#80

Post by mattdennewitz »

nazgulnarsil wrote: post #76
mattdennewitz wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

replace "i dont cheat on my own material" with "drink" and "help them cheat" with "buy beer".

maybe you should have used a murder example, because I don't see the problem with minors drinking on private property if their parents don't mind.

as in the law stating if you around in during the commission of a felony, you're just as liable as the real criminals? sure, thats valid. the point i'm trying to make is that facilitating the crime makes you just as guilty, period. underage drinking isn't the topic at hand.
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