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Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

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Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#61

Post by PieSquared »

physcab wrote: post #46
PieSquared wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it depends on the form of cheating. Cheating on anything you can do through learning - yeah, that's cheating yourself. But (in my high school at least) I've noticed that many homework assignments are pure busyword: there is no intellectual value to be gained through their completion, and all you are doing is wasting your time when in reality you could put it to a better use. In those cases, I would not feel g…

You're just rationalizing. It doesn't matter how much value you place on the assignment. It only matters if you cut corners.

Wait, what?

It doesn't matter how much value I place on an assignment? Yes, to me, it does!

I do not understand who decides what 'matters' in this case. I see it as such: To me, a value-less assignment which takes up a disproportionate amount of time is wrong; thus, make it take less time. If it gives me no value in return, and I'm not hurting anything by cutting corners, then I most certainly will cut corners. Is there a better solution?

It's a trade-off. Cut corners, learn more on your own because you have time. Don't cut corners and be honest, learn less.

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#63

Post by GHFigs »

lucumo wrote: post #35
neilc wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can perfectly understand people saying 'this assignment/test is ridiculous. I'm not going to put any effort in it and rather copy/cheat and spend my time in a more productive way'. I can understand why someone might say that, but it would still be immoral and dishonest of them to cheat. When you take a class, you enter into a contract (often an explicit academic honesty policy) to not cheat. If you find the assignm…

> When you take a class, you enter into a contract (often an explicit academic honesty policy) to not cheat. There's quite a difference between a university where you're on your own volition and high school where you're obligated to stay. The morality of cheating in high school is a lot different from cheating in a university.

Bullshit. You can't separate them like that when your admission to a given university is based largely on your academic performance in high school. Your presence there is not just by your own choice; you're competing with others for limited enrollment. By cheating to get enrolled in the first place you deprive honest students of academic opportunity.

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#64

Post by GHFigs »

PieSquared wrote: post #60
falien wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be legally required to be present, but that doesn't mean you have to do anything. I have no particular problem with copying busywork, but claiming you're required to do any such work is a cop out. (Also it is shockingly easy in the US to get out of the legal requirement of attending school, even of one's own volition when they've reached high school age.)

You can do nothing, but if you're the type that wants an education (i.e. a decent university with math, physics, bio, cs, or etc courses available), you have to comply with the demands of the system.

So it's ok to be dishonest and comply with a broken system as long as you get what you want?

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#65

Post by PieSquared »

GHFigs wrote: post #64
PieSquared wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do nothing, but if you're the type that wants an education (i.e. a decent university with math, physics, bio, cs, or etc courses available), you have to comply with the demands of the system.

So it's ok to be dishonest and comply with a broken system as long as you get what you want?

You're hurting no one through your so-called "dishonesty."

Do you have a better solution? The system cannot be fixed to a complete extent quickly. My solution is to avoid busywork classes and get high grades in the busywork classes so I can just skip assignments instead as often as possible.

Do you have a better one?

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#66

Post by Confusion »

lutorm wrote: post #58
Confusion wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have different opinions on what is ethical. Disregarding the terms of a contract, or the law for what that matters, may be perfectly ethical in my book. There is always a difference between the letter of the contract and the intention of the contract. The letter is the same for everyone, but the intention isn't. For instance, the law must forbid jaywalking, to be able to punish those that jaywalk and endanger them…

The difference between a law and a contract is that you can choose to not sign the contract if you don't agree with the terms, so arguing after the fact that you will only obey the terms of the contract that you like makes me hope I never have to do business with you.

My argument does not apply to the case were two parties have fully negotiated the terms of a contract.

It applies to cases where the terms are not negotiable. If thousands of others have signed the same contract, then there is no room for individual variations in the terms, even if that would benefit both parties. Try to get a different contract with your local library or a university: impossible, even though it would be in you, their and societies best interest.

The pragmatic choice is to sign the contract, but break it in a way advantageous to all parties involved.

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#67

Post by Confusion »

GHFigs wrote: post #63
lucumo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you take a class, you enter into a contract (often an explicit academic honesty policy) to not cheat. There's quite a difference between a university where you're on your own volition and high school where you're obligated to stay. The morality of cheating in high school is a lot different from cheating in a university.

Bullshit. You can't separate them like that when your admission to a given university is based largely on your academic performance in high school. Your presence there is not just by your own choice; you're competing with others for limited enrollment. By cheating to get enrolled in the first place you deprive honest students of academic opportunity.

You're equating 'cheating' with 'lacking knowledge/skill', which is unfounded. In the preceding discussion we are talking about cases where cheating would be considered ethical by some, because the trade-off is acceptable. For instance, someone may be on their way to becoming a very good physicist and doesn't care for compulsory german. Who cares if a current physics professor ever cheated at german?

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#68

Post by GHFigs »

PieSquared wrote: post #65
GHFigs wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's ok to be dishonest and comply with a broken system as long as you get what you want?

You're hurting no one through your so-called "dishonesty." Do you have a better solution? The system cannot be fixed to a complete extent quickly. My solution is to avoid busywork classes and get high grades in the busywork classes so I can just skip assignments instead as often as possible. Do you have a better one?

You're hurting no one through your so-called "dishonesty."

Not true. You harm the honest students that are denied academic opportunity because dishonest students have higher grades. And by the way, it isn't "so-called" dishonesty, it is by definition dishonest. Whether you regard it as ethical or not does not change the meaning of the word.

Do you have a better solution?

What you propose is not a solution at all. It is an exploit.

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#69

Post by GHFigs »

Confusion wrote: post #67
GHFigs wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. You can't separate them like that when your admission to a given university is based largely on your academic performance in high school. Your presence there is not just by your own choice; you're competing with others for limited enrollment. By cheating to get enrolled in the first place you deprive honest students of academic opportunity.

You're equating 'cheating' with 'lacking knowledge/skill', which is unfounded. In the preceding discussion we are talking about cases where cheating would be considered ethical by some, because the trade-off is acceptable. For instance, someone may be on their way to becoming a very good physicist and doesn't care for compulsory german. Who cares if a current physics professor ever cheated at german?

You're equating 'cheating' with 'lacking knowledge/skill'

I said nothing of the kind. I am saying it is an unfair advantage in obtaining academic opportunity over equally or more capable students who are more honest. Even between two students of exactly equal ability, the dishonest student has the advantage.

For instance, someone may be on their way to becoming a very good physicist and doesn't care for compulsory german.

What part of this implies they deserve a high grade in German? Would a student doing equally well in German but poorly in Physics (because he doesn't care for it) deserve a high grade in Physics? Do either of them deserve higher grades than an honest student earning grades slightly below each of them? Does that student deserve to go to an inferior college?

Re: Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

#70

Post by Confusion »

GHFigs wrote: post #69
Confusion wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're equating 'cheating' with 'lacking knowledge/skill', which is unfounded. In the preceding discussion we are talking about cases where cheating would be considered ethical by some, because the trade-off is acceptable. For instance, someone may be on their way to becoming a very good physicist and doesn't care for compulsory german. Who cares if a current physics professor ever cheated at german?

You're equating 'cheating' with 'lacking knowledge/skill' I said nothing of the kind. I am saying it is an unfair advantage in obtaining academic opportunity over equally or more capable students who are more honest. Even between two students of exactly equal ability, the dishonest student has the advantage. For instance, someone may be on their way to becoming a very good physicist and doesn't care for compulsory ge…

I am saying it is an unfair advantage in obtaining academic opportunity

That's a US-specific problem. Here anyone that has obtained a degree can enroll in pretty much any course at any university/college.

What part of this implies they deserve a high grade in German?

People that cheat seldomnly have high grade averages in the subject they cheat in. The just manage to pass the subject. But that's also a US specific problem. Grade averages are much less an issue here.

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