How many horror stories do you have to hear until you don't use paypal and don't use anything that uses paypal?
PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
311–320 of 366 posts
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#312Earlier quoted context omitted.
From the article: "PayPal's position particularly ridiculous when contrasted with IndieGoGo's policy of transferring all funds to successful campaigns within 15 days of their conclusion. If IndieGoGo can do it, so can PayPal." This seems to me to imply that the PayPal fundraising was done in parallel to IndieGoGo.
From the IGG campaing update: "The bad news is, PayPal have frozen our PayPal account. This means roughly $45,000 of the $135,000 we have raised so far are in a state of limbo and we don't know when we will get access to the money" And the campaign is currently at 137.000 USD. IGG offers PayPal as payment method along with CC payment and from what I've gathered those funds are handled via PayPal. AFAIK the funds at k…
Ok, that seems to indicate otherwise. I'm just confused over how IndieGoGo's 15 day policy applies if the PayPal funds are sent directly to Mailpile.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#313Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is absurd apologism. If Indiegogo projects are fundamentally incompatible with PayPal's risk profile as you imply, the onus is on PayPal not to accept money for those projects. Full stop. Why on Earth should we sympathize with PayPal about internal aspects of their underwriting at the expense of a small business whose funds they've practically seized?
Your argument might be stronger if it didn't rely on labeling ("absurd apologism", which is itself an absurd accusation when you think about what apologism means) and appeals to emotion. The short answer to your question is that you should concern yourself (not sympathize) with their problems when those problems intersect with yours and guide their decisions.
Pretty glib.
Your argument might be stronger if it didn't rely on labeling ...
The argument doesn't rely on labeling, though it does call a spade a spade.
A definition of "apologism" is "a defense or excuse, a speech or written answer made in justification." I'd love to hear why this is an incorrect characterization of the comment.
The short answer to your question is that you should concern yourself (not sympathize) with their problems when those problems intersect with yours and guide their decisions.
If I retain Matasano for work, I shouldn't need to obsess over the details of your cost structure or employee benefits packages; our contract should suffice. Similarly here, Patrick's description of Paypal's theory of underwriting is interesting, but irrelevant. Deflecting blame based on these issues is, indeed, absurd.
If PayPal's risk profile does not support doing business with Indiegogo projects, they should cease doing business with those projects rather than seizing thousands of dollars on spurious grounds. Feel free to debate the merits, if you actually have a difference in opinion.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#314Earlier quoted context omitted.
If Paypal are so concerned about presales, then in my opinion they should get out of the market. Or force their customer base to get some sort of insurance. You know, do their risk management before they let the vendor take payments? It amazes me that their marker for freezing money is for how many sales the company does . Because you wouldn't want to accept money from a successful business now!
> You know, do their risk management before they let the vendor take payments? They have a very clear policy on presales and you would expect that people that do presales through PayPal read those damn policies. They are even written in an FAQ and not legalese.
Their policy is fundamentally incompatible with IndieGoGo's model. So why do they accept payments for IGG campaigns in the first place?
You can't have it both ways.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#315Earlier quoted context omitted.
From the IGG campaing update: "The bad news is, PayPal have frozen our PayPal account. This means roughly $45,000 of the $135,000 we have raised so far are in a state of limbo and we don't know when we will get access to the money" And the campaign is currently at 137.000 USD. IGG offers PayPal as payment method along with CC payment and from what I've gathered those funds are handled via PayPal. AFAIK the funds at k…
Ok, that seems to indicate otherwise. I'm just confused over how IndieGoGo's 15 day policy applies if the PayPal funds are sent directly to Mailpile.
It's pretty clearly laid out here http://support.indiegogo.com/entries/20501826-when-to-expect...
The gist is: For flexible funding campaigns the amount given via PayPal are transferred directly to the campaigns PP account (minus the fees obviously). For fixed funding campaigns the given amount is transferred after the campaign meets the funding goal. Money given via direct Credit Card payment will be cashed out after the campaign reaches its deadline and should arrive within 15 business days.
Mailpile is a flexible funding campaign, so the first rule applies and funds are directly placed in their PP account.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#316Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your argument might be stronger if it didn't rely on labeling ("absurd apologism", which is itself an absurd accusation when you think about what apologism means) and appeals to emotion. The short answer to your question is that you should concern yourself (not sympathize) with their problems when those problems intersect with yours and guide their decisions.
Pretty glib. Your argument might be stronger if it didn't rely on labeling ... The argument doesn't rely on labeling, though it does call a spade a spade. A definition of "apologism" is "a defense or excuse, a speech or written answer made in justification." I'd love to hear why this is an incorrect characterization of the comment. The short answer to your question is that you should concern yourself (not sympathize)…
No. Were you to retain Matasano, you'd discover that our relationship would be governed by a series of contracts. If you were of any significant size, those contracts would be scrutinized on your side by your counsel. If you were a typical client of size, your counsel and management would likely have questions or concerns about those terms, which would then be the subject of negotiation. Our risk tolerance and cost structure would very much matter to those negotiations.
Regarding the label you used: what makes it absurd is the notion that Patrick would be motivated by an urge to justify the actions of a 3rd party business he's barely engaged with. Here it pains me to cite Paul Graham's "Things You Can't Say" on the semiotic significance of deploying labels to make arguments.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#317Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because IndieGoGo is a single actor willing to absorb a good deal of the risk itself.
I don't get your point. PayPal works as a payment provider for IGG campaigns. If IGG is willing to absorb the risk, then PayPal, as their payment provider should as well. Or, if PayPal is not willing to follow through and act as payment provider for high-risk crowdfundings, then PayPal should not be payment provider for IGG campaigns. But the middle way, first offering payment through PP and then not cashing out the…
You're presuming IGG and PP have the same risk calculation. IGG might be more willing to take on risk than PP.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#318I believe the whole story and comments can be summed up as:
1. People want paypal to act as a big dumb money pipe from point A to point B
2. Paypal refuses to act as a big dumb money pipe from point A to point B when the risk is high that point A may want their money back, and paypal cannot shift the loss allocation to someone else.
3. Their risk mitigation strategy in the case of #2, while not atypical of the industry, upsets a lot of people who are not familiar with this type of thing occurring, and seems "unfair".
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#319Earlier quoted context omitted.
But with Bitcoin, if you trust the merchant/recipient you can opt out of using escrow and transfer the money directly to him. With Paypal it's impossible.
Just send a money order or cash through the mail. After all, you trust the recipient, so you don't need all that customer protection stuff that Paypal offers.
I do that all the time. I live in Poland and bought hundreds of things from the Internet. Buyer always pays first, and there are no such things as chargebacks. And yet most people are okay with that. Only US people take chargebacks for granted.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#320Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't get your point. PayPal works as a payment provider for IGG campaigns. If IGG is willing to absorb the risk, then PayPal, as their payment provider should as well. Or, if PayPal is not willing to follow through and act as payment provider for high-risk crowdfundings, then PayPal should not be payment provider for IGG campaigns. But the middle way, first offering payment through PP and then not cashing out the…
You're presuming IGG and PP have the same risk calculation. IGG might be more willing to take on risk than PP.
Then why does PP work as Payment Provider for IGG if they are so risk-averse?