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PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

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Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#261

Post by anigbrowl »

pm24601 wrote: post #225
patio11 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally understand that this inconveniences you a lot. Be that as it may, your conspiracy theory has no basis in fact whatsoever . Paypal will, in fact, not make large amounts of money on transaction float -- they're already probably losing money on your account by talking to you too darn much. Interest rates are presently something like 15 basis points ($150 per year on $100k). Even if we count their underwriter a…

If it is such a problem for PayPal then they should get out of the business.

That argument goes both ways, no?

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#262

Post by ceejayoz »

wahsd wrote: post #141
patio11 wrote: post #118

Indulge me in a flight of fancy in which we pretend, for the sake of argument, that a) Paypal is run not by Snidely Whiplash clones but b) by smart geeks working with thin margins in a highly regulated industry where c) customers are at risk essentially never, d) merchants eat 100% of the risk if they stay in business, and e) Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't. Why is Paypal very skeptical of pre-sa…

At the core of your very well crafted considerations and arguments lies one critical flaw; Paypal's risks or issues are none of our problems and the burden for which should not be rolled over and down the chain of responsibility or power. Unfortunately, it is a systemic problem in the American business culture and society as a whole that responsibility and consequences are constantly passed down to to the point where…

> Paypal's risks or issues are none of our problems and the burden for which should not be rolled over and down the chain of responsibility or power.

PayPal is taking precisely that position - that Mailpile's potential problems and burdens should not become PayPal's.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#263

Post by saurik »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #250
patio11 wrote: post #118

Indulge me in a flight of fancy in which we pretend, for the sake of argument, that a) Paypal is run not by Snidely Whiplash clones but b) by smart geeks working with thin margins in a highly regulated industry where c) customers are at risk essentially never, d) merchants eat 100% of the risk if they stay in business, and e) Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't. Why is Paypal very skeptical of pre-sa…

And yet this story keeps happening, over and over and over across the years. Remember the $1 million-plus raised for hurricane relief raised after Katrina that PayPal threw down the drain by declaring that they wouldn't release it until long after it mattered? If PayPal has good reasons not to accept donations and crowdfunding, they shouldn't fucking accept donations or crowdfunding, instead of letting users get in d…

> Maybe it's buried in the small print that they don't expect anyone to read.

Maybe you don't expect people to read the fine print, but PayPal clearly does, and frankly if you are going into business then you should be making a point out of always reading the fine print.

> If PayPal has good reasons not to accept donations and crowdfunding, they shouldn't fucking accept donations or crowdfunding, instead of letting users get in deep enough to get screwed before dropping the hammer.

Money is money, so if you are dealing with people who apparently won't consider reading "the fine print" or even doing some trivial due diligence in the FAQ, you can't somehow not accept these use cases.

> Holding funds in escrow should not be a complicated problem.

Correct, it isn't. This is why that's what happened: PayPal doesn't just steal your money and leave, they put various restrictions on your account that mitigate the risks involved in your business.

The most simple thing that they can do, and which tends to be the first recourse (and thereby the one that, if you don't go insane with a public rant you can negotiate down from) is a 180-day hold.

If you call PayPal, however, and demonstrate that you shipped these products, showing some kind of documentation of shipment, PayPal will release your funds immediately. That is an "escrow".

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#264

Post by ceejayoz »

jafaku wrote: post #120
hackula1 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will accept goats and chickens before I accept Bitcoin. 99% of people have never even heard of it. I am pretty certain that 100% of my customers have never heard of it. Not worth my time.

Yeah, you can probably multiply your savings x10 every year by yourself anyway, no need to use a revolutionary currency for that. http://blockchain.info/charts/market-price?timespan=all&show...

Past performance is no guarantee of future results.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#265

Post by anigbrowl »

wahsd wrote: post #141
patio11 wrote: post #118

Indulge me in a flight of fancy in which we pretend, for the sake of argument, that a) Paypal is run not by Snidely Whiplash clones but b) by smart geeks working with thin margins in a highly regulated industry where c) customers are at risk essentially never, d) merchants eat 100% of the risk if they stay in business, and e) Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't. Why is Paypal very skeptical of pre-sa…

At the core of your very well crafted considerations and arguments lies one critical flaw; Paypal's risks or issues are none of our problems and the burden for which should not be rolled over and down the chain of responsibility or power. Unfortunately, it is a systemic problem in the American business culture and society as a whole that responsibility and consequences are constantly passed down to to the point where…

Paypal's risks or issues are none of our problems and the burden for which should not be rolled over and down the chain of responsibility or power.

But they don't owe you a payment service. You could just go the bank and get a regular merchant account. Yes, they're a pain in the ass to deal with, but stop being such a drama queen.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#266

Post by freejack »

kalleboo wrote: post #255
freejack wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, Paypal only eats the risk if they release funds. They rarely release funds on high risk accounts, at least not without retaining a rolling deposit.

And that's... exactly what's going on here, and what everyone is bitching so loudly about.

I'm not saying "don't bitch about paypal", I'm saying "paypal doesn't carry a lot of risk in the first place".

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#267

Post by anigbrowl »

ubernostrum wrote: post #233
patio11 wrote: post #118

Indulge me in a flight of fancy in which we pretend, for the sake of argument, that a) Paypal is run not by Snidely Whiplash clones but b) by smart geeks working with thin margins in a highly regulated industry where c) customers are at risk essentially never, d) merchants eat 100% of the risk if they stay in business, and e) Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't. Why is Paypal very skeptical of pre-sa…

The issue with PayPal is not that they take steps to insulate themselves from fraud and chargebacks. The issue is that their process for doing so is unilateral and -- as is well-documented -- offers essentially no options for resolution unless you are lucky enough to be able to bring significant media pressure to bear on them. That is a problem. Unfortunately, I think the only solution is to encourage people to basic…

But conversely, the processes are abysmal* because Paypal is cheap. If you want to be given first-class treatment and have your hand held every step of the way, then I'm sure there are plenty of firms that would be willing to do that...in exchange for 10-15% commissions.

* I think they're annoying but not abysmal. 90% of the tantrums I see on HN about Paypal involve a lack of preparation on the part of the counterparty.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#268

Post by _pius »

teraflop wrote: post #258
_pius wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absurd apologism. If Indiegogo projects are fundamentally incompatible with PayPal's risk profile as you imply, the onus is on PayPal not to accept money for those projects. Full stop. Why on Earth should we sympathize with PayPal about internal aspects of their underwriting at the expense of a small business whose funds they've practically seized?

As has been pointed out elsewhere, PayPal has an explicit policy about how they handle presales. Why can't I turn your argument around and say that if somebody doesn't like that policy, the onus is on them to not use PayPal?

I don't grant your premise that crowdfunding constitutes "presales."

Crowdfunding is an inherently speculative activity, a way to invest in a team with the hopes that they will create a product that you'd like to see in the world. Trying to fit Indiegogo into a presales model to justify PayPal's outrageous behavior here is a Procrustean approach that helps no one.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#269

Post by bnr »

_pius wrote: post #245
patio11 wrote: post #118

Indulge me in a flight of fancy in which we pretend, for the sake of argument, that a) Paypal is run not by Snidely Whiplash clones but b) by smart geeks working with thin margins in a highly regulated industry where c) customers are at risk essentially never, d) merchants eat 100% of the risk if they stay in business, and e) Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't. Why is Paypal very skeptical of pre-sa…

This is absurd apologism. If Indiegogo projects are fundamentally incompatible with PayPal's risk profile as you imply, the onus is on PayPal not to accept money for those projects. Full stop. Why on Earth should we sympathize with PayPal about internal aspects of their underwriting at the expense of a small business whose funds they've practically seized?

> for the sake of argument

> This is absurd apologism.

I agree that what happens to Mailpile is A Bad Thing, but the reasoning as to why it makes financial (not moral) sense for PayPal to withhold the money is solid. There are other ways to send money across the world, maybe the lesson for crowdfunders is to switch to one that is more instant and less reversible, or at least offer them as alternatives.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#270

Post by anigbrowl »

M4v3R wrote: post #112
danielweber wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no fraud Only for extremely specific and useless definitions of "no fraud." If I send my bitcoins to someone to buy something, I have no protection if they decide not to deliver. At which point the Bitcoin enthusiasts will say "but you can use a third party escrow service," which is true, and puts us right back into the same situation we are with PayPal .

But with Bitcoin, if you trust the merchant/recipient you can opt out of using escrow and transfer the money directly to him. With Paypal it's impossible.

Just send a money order or cash through the mail. After all, you trust the recipient, so you don't need all that customer protection stuff that Paypal offers.
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