PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds • Hacker News Board

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#141

Post by wahsd » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 1:11 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #118

Indulge me in a flight of fancy in which we pretend, for the sake of argument, that a) Paypal is run not by Snidely Whiplash clones but b) by smart geeks working with thin margins in a highly regulated industry where c) customers are at risk essentially never, d) merchants eat 100% of the risk if they stay in business, and e) Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't. Why is Paypal very skeptical of pre-sa…

At the core of your very well crafted considerations and arguments lies one critical flaw; Paypal's risks or issues are none of our problems and the burden for which should not be rolled over and down the chain of responsibility or power. Unfortunately, it is a systemic problem in the American business culture and society as a whole that responsibility and consequences are constantly passed down to to the point where responsibility and power intersect, leaving the powerless holding the consequences of the powerful.

I, nor anyone else that pays Paypal cares, nor should have to care what their particular drama-issues are when conducting business with them. The time is rife for a system that is not as corrupt, abusive, incompetent, and dishonest as Paypal. How many more stories of someone's funds being frozen, i.e., stolen for a year do we have to hear where companies and individuals will start shying away from doing business with Paypal. Paypal is about as much of a pal as a backstabbing, draining, sabotaging, untrustworthy piece of shit as a company can be, why are people still working with them.

Paypal needs to suffer the same demise that MySpace did when they became a harbor for pedophiles and the scum of the earth .... with blinking flair all over their screen.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#142

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 1:12 PM UTC

timrogers wrote: post #103

I work at GoCardless.com, a UK-based payments startup (YC S11), and thus I have a above-average insight into these kinds of issues from my day-to-day work. From the point of view of fraud protection and risk management, I can see why PayPal take this kind of unilateral action. Payments providers are always at high risk, and since they deal with and indemnify other financial firms further up the chain, they're the one…

[deleted]

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#143

Post by chris_wot » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 1:13 PM UTC

MacsHeadroom wrote: post #116

contextual wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of the half dozen times I've purchased with bitcoins, I was ripped off every single time. I stopped using it. I'm a supporter of bitcoins and want it to succeed, I just don't trust a lot of the vendors that use it.

What were you buying? Out of the dozens of times I've purchased with Bitcoins I have never been ripped off. Buy from reputable companies or use an escrow service. A homeless guy asked me for my car keys the other day. He said he'd clean the inside of my car and bring me the keys. I didn't give him my keys. Something tells me you would have.

Well that escalated quickly.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#144

Post by nhangen » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 1:14 PM UTC

This is exactly why our company stopped focusing on our Paypal integration and started focusing on other gateways, such as Stripe and WePay. We had built a really great Braintree gateway, but they to came out with a policy against crowdfunding.

As far as I can tell, you can still get through and/or avoid messes like these by communicating with the gateway up front in order to get permission. Robert Space Industries did this with Amazon and Paypal before launching. They were forced to provide much of this documentation, but in the end, it helped them avoid any major hiccups.

Of course, IndieGoGo should be working with merchants to help them through this. If they are going to be the intermediary between the crowd and the company, they should do the same when dealing with payments. Sadly, all of the major crowdfunding platforms lack in this regard.

If you're thinking about crowdfunding and are nervous about being shut down, I recommend you run either as donations or pre-orders. In the case of the latter, you are best not taking funds until the goal is met or you've reached a certain development milestone.

I do think that this sucks for crowdfunding in general, but perhaps it will curtail the money grab that has been in place for some time.

And of course, if you want to have as many options as possible, check out http://IgnitionDeck.com. A WordPress install and you can have your choice of gateways.

Good luck to the Mailpile guys. I recommend providing this information. It will be good to have in the event that an investor knocks on the door.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#145

Post by cabalamat » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 1:15 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #118

Indulge me in a flight of fancy in which we pretend, for the sake of argument, that a) Paypal is run not by Snidely Whiplash clones but b) by smart geeks working with thin margins in a highly regulated industry where c) customers are at risk essentially never, d) merchants eat 100% of the risk if they stay in business, and e) Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't. Why is Paypal very skeptical of pre-sa…

> Indulge me in a flight of fancy [...]

This is the same Paypal that fucked Wikileaks over. I don't think they should get the benefit of the doubt.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#146

Post by nraynaud » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 1:15 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #118

Indulge me in a flight of fancy in which we pretend, for the sake of argument, that a) Paypal is run not by Snidely Whiplash clones but b) by smart geeks working with thin margins in a highly regulated industry where c) customers are at risk essentially never, d) merchants eat 100% of the risk if they stay in business, and e) Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't. Why is Paypal very skeptical of pre-sa…

and of course, paypal only discovers all that risk when there is a lot of money on the hook? And their only action is to make a move that's hugely profitable to them ? Because now customers are charged (they won't pay by another mean) and the company is dry.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#147

Post by patio11 » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 1:16 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #118

Indulge me in a flight of fancy in which we pretend, for the sake of argument, that a) Paypal is run not by Snidely Whiplash clones but b) by smart geeks working with thin margins in a highly regulated industry where c) customers are at risk essentially never, d) merchants eat 100% of the risk if they stay in business, and e) Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't. Why is Paypal very skeptical of pre-sa…

Interesting reading: the Paypal Pre-sales Policy

https://www.paypal-businesscenter.com/content/presale-policy...

In particular I like the bullet point under "I’m a legitimate business selling products and services in advance. Why do I have reserves on my account?", which is lengthy, worth a read, and which you'll have to click to expand.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#148

Post by mkr-hn » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 1:18 PM UTC

M4v3R wrote: post #112

danielweber wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no fraud Only for extremely specific and useless definitions of "no fraud." If I send my bitcoins to someone to buy something, I have no protection if they decide not to deliver. At which point the Bitcoin enthusiasts will say "but you can use a third party escrow service," which is true, and puts us right back into the same situation we are with PayPal .

But with Bitcoin, if you trust the merchant/recipient you can opt out of using escrow and transfer the money directly to him. With Paypal it's impossible.

I can mail money directly to someone if I don't want to deal with a bank or payment processor. FedEx/UPS/USPS are the Internet in this analogy.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#149

Post by jamestomasino » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 1:23 PM UTC

Wow, I'm really surprised by the amount of snark on this thread aimed at mailpile. They are following IndieGoGo's standard process. For PayPal to take exception with them and single out their funds is ridiculous. If PayPal wants to start requiring IndieGoGo campaigns to submit business plans, they should work that out with the site, not an individual campaign, and certainly not after the whole thing is funded. This is not Mailpile's fault for following procedure.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#150

Post by jafaku » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 1:24 PM UTC

Ecio78 wrote: post #138

jafaku wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you can probably multiply your savings x10 every year by yourself anyway, no need to use a revolutionary currency for that. http://blockchain.info/charts/market-price?timespan=all&show...

He is talking about using that currency as a way of being paid (= running his business), not for investing neither for speculating. N.B. maybe I'm wrong but according to this graph: http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg360ztgSzm1g10zm2g... http://blockchain.info/charts/market-price Now bitcoin has half the value than in April (and, I known, 10x Jan value). Too volatile to use if your business IMHO.

Like it has been said a gazillion times already, you can get paid in USD if you want to (using Bitcoin behind the scenes). You get the same benefits as a merchant (no chargebacks, easy implementation, ridiculously small fees, countries: All), and without the annoying x10 yearly gains.