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London to Brighton train ride, 1953-2013 [video]

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Re: London to Brighton train ride, 1953-2013 [video]

#41

Post by vidarh »

mtdewcmu wrote: post #25
nohuck13 wrote: post #20

It's interesting how many more trees there are in 2013. My wife pointed out that it looks the same with pictures of New York from the early 20th century- green space just wasn't a thing we had the desire/means to rate as highly. OTOH the major infrastructure hasn't changed much (bridges, urban areas, not just the train line which is politically determined). Technological change reshapes how live in a lot of ways in s…

I thought there might have been fewer trees in the earliest video, but it was really difficult to tell with the film quality and the speed of things rushing by. If the rail was newly laid in the 50s, then they might have had to cut down the trees, and they take a while to come back. The difference that jumped out at me the most is the decline in hats. I wonder how many haberdashers were put out of work during this pe…

> If the rail was newly laid in the 50s, then they might have had to cut down the trees

It wasn't. The first London to Brighton railway line opened in 1841. Most of sections of the two main paths from Brighton to London (to London Victoria and London Bridge respectively) should have been complete by about 1855. There was expansion work (adding extra tracks) on the busiest section of the line around 1908, but I think that was the last major work on the London-Brighton lines apart from connecting branches.

There's of course been replacements and upgrades, but these tends to happen bit by bit.

Re: London to Brighton train ride, 1953-2013 [video]

#42

Post by TeddyLondon »

jdimov wrote: post #31
sdfjkl wrote: post #3

Interesting how the way passengers dress has changed vastly in the first 30 years and not so much in the recent 30.

Yes, Brits dressed WAY WAY better 60 years ago. I just took this trip a few days ago and was appalled and disgusted by the way that most people were dressed.

disgusted by the way people dress? were they copying the American "lady ga-ga's" bacon outfit (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=lady+gaga+bacon&safe=activ...)?

Re: London to Brighton train ride, 1953-2013 [video]

#43

Post by erre »

nohuck13 wrote: post #20

It's interesting how many more trees there are in 2013. My wife pointed out that it looks the same with pictures of New York from the early 20th century- green space just wasn't a thing we had the desire/means to rate as highly. OTOH the major infrastructure hasn't changed much (bridges, urban areas, not just the train line which is politically determined). Technological change reshapes how live in a lot of ways in s…

At first I thought so too as well, but then I started to wonder whether that was just an effect of the first film being black and white. This means that the trees don't stand out as much against the grey background as when they're shown in colour.

Re: London to Brighton train ride, 1953-2013 [video]

#44

Post by TeddyLondon »

billforsternz wrote: post #13
ibrow wrote: post #11

Are the three videos running at the same speed? Or are they constantly adjusted so they keep up with each other so we can see more clearly any changes in landscape? I can actually believe that the journey time hasn't increased since the 1950s. However, possibly the clock at the end of the film is there to indicate the differing journey times? Anyway, interesting video. thanks for posting.

They've clearly made progressive adjustments to synch the journeys - it would be extraordinary if they entered/exited tunnels etc. at exactly the same time otherwise.

I make this journey everyday, pretty cool to see it as it used to be, it is a shame it is so fast.

You can see when they go through the first big tunnel (the merstham tunnel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merstham_tunnels) they enter at the same time and exit at the same time so the old one must be (maybe??) sped up.

It would have been interesting to see what Gatwick airport was like then but it doesn't really show it, other than there being a big space on the right hand side that isn't there any more (2:11).

Re: London to Brighton train ride, 1953-2013 [video]

#45

Post by vidarh »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #2

Its a little sad that repeating the exercise today shows little improvement over 30 years ago. The HST125 is still the fastest diesel train in the world (the actual video was likely taken from a Diesel Multiple Unit which are lighter and more efficient but not faster), those lines are still not electrified little has changed in train signalling with most of the improvements in train control being to centralise it rat…

Apart from the fact those lines are all electrified, the problem on the London-Brighton stretch is not so much train speed as it is line capacity and reliability.

South of East Croydon a substantial stretch is just double track (one in each direction), though most of the line has four tracks (which still makes for a massive chokepoint if a train fails) , and many of the stations have very few platforms and no extra track for trains to pass on. North of East Croydon, there's massive capacity problems on the approach to London Bridge, and on the path from London Bridge in to Charing Cross.

The result is that the slightest little impact to the time table at half a dozen points or more along the line have carry on effects along the entire line.

Increasing the speed of the trains would be great, but without upgrading capacity the slightest little problem would force a lot of following trains to slow down anyway.

EDIT: Apparently the "third rail" is also a problem for increasing speeds.

Re: London to Brighton train ride, 1953-2013 [video]

#46

Post by radiowave »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #33
harrytuttle wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bombadier Voyager units (class 220-222) are rated to the same speed. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Voyager_family They're much more comfortable and quieter than the 125's (43's + mk3s) plus they don't give you a face full of fumes when they start up or scare your children :)

In all honesty I prefer the HST125. Part of that is nostalgia, the HST125 is a great example of technology from the golden age of British Engineering which, like the Route-master bus, outlived several generations of successors. The other part is the Voyager fleet in my experience always smell of toilet.

I was fortunate to be working in the centre of Newcastle around 2007 when the last of the Valenta-engined 125s were in service, and I'd hear the north-bound trains pulling out of the station. But since then they've changed to newer diesel engines, and they don't have that glorious screaming turbocharger anymore.

Here's what it sounded like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H-WKRIXynQ

Re: London to Brighton train ride, 1953-2013 [video]

#47

Post by j4mie »

dredmorbius wrote: post #21
ibrow wrote: post #11

Are the three videos running at the same speed? Or are they constantly adjusted so they keep up with each other so we can see more clearly any changes in landscape? I can actually believe that the journey time hasn't increased since the 1950s. However, possibly the clock at the end of the film is there to indicate the differing journey times? Anyway, interesting video. thanks for posting.

I just checked the clock times, and it's not possible to judge. 1953: no departure time, arrival is 13:05. 1983: departure at 14:00, arrival at 14:03. Fast trip! Or someone cheated setting up clock / departure shots. 2013: departure: 08:32, arrival 09:50. The Brighton-London trip looks to be about 1:10 based on this site: http://traintimes.org.uk/?page=/service/timetable/lateroutbo... Trip times here are 58m to 1h 20…

The Brighton to London trip is just over 50 minutes on the fastest currently available route, which has two stops (East Croydon and Clapham Junction). The BBC article linked in another comment [1] mentions that the train used to make this video was a specially commissioned non-stop trip, so I expect it took a bit less than 50 minutes (assuming it was going at the same speed, of course).

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23853863

Re: London to Brighton train ride, 1953-2013 [video]

#48

Post by JulianMorrison »

harrytuttle wrote: post #32
ido wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As point of interest, why is it that hard? What makes the task (or mundane parts of it) less automat-able than driving cars (which I think most people would say isn't all that difficult)?

It's definitely automatable, entirely. The DLR in the UK proved that. But that isn't going to happen when the problem is slightly more complicated and not predictable like it is in older lines. You have ot build with automation in mind. One tree on the line and an automated train will plough through it for example derailing it and killing many people ( http://www.caerphillyobserver.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/... )…

Given these are the kind of obstacles a Google driverless car has to navigate around, machines may be at the point they can match humans here. Of course this is a much more fancy, expensive level of automation than the "docklands light railway" type.

Re: London to Brighton train ride, 1953-2013 [video]

#49

Post by cstross »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #48
harrytuttle wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely automatable, entirely. The DLR in the UK proved that. But that isn't going to happen when the problem is slightly more complicated and not predictable like it is in older lines. You have ot build with automation in mind. One tree on the line and an automated train will plough through it for example derailing it and killing many people ( http://www.caerphillyobserver.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/... )…

Given these are the kind of obstacles a Google driverless car has to navigate around, machines may be at the point they can match humans here. Of course this is a much more fancy, expensive level of automation than the "docklands light railway" type.

If a driverless car goes wrong, it's very unlikely to kill more than a double-handful of people.

A 5000-ton freight train capable of barreling along at 100km/h while carrying 50 tanks of propane or anhydrous ammonia or similar is an entirely different risk case ...

Re: London to Brighton train ride, 1953-2013 [video]

#50

Post by VBprogrammer »

radiowave wrote: post #46
VBprogrammer wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all honesty I prefer the HST125. Part of that is nostalgia, the HST125 is a great example of technology from the golden age of British Engineering which, like the Route-master bus, outlived several generations of successors. The other part is the Voyager fleet in my experience always smell of toilet.

I was fortunate to be working in the centre of Newcastle around 2007 when the last of the Valenta-engined 125s were in service, and I'd hear the north-bound trains pulling out of the station. But since then they've changed to newer diesel engines, and they don't have that glorious screaming turbocharger anymore. Here's what it sounded like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H-WKRIXynQ

Yeah, I know that sound well. It's a sound I strongly associate with Edinburgh train-station having taken the final leg of the Kings-cross service back to Glasgow many times while at University.

Apparently the sound of the Valenta engine was used a clip in a song but I've never figured out which one.

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