A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty • Hacker News Board

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#11

Post by autarch » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 6:43 AM UTC

roarroar wrote: post #8

robdor wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that a high vit + end build is bulletproof. I'm absolutely certain that most anybody could destroy that build easily in PvP. One of the great things about the build system in Dark Souls is a build that is great for PvE may not be a great build for PvP.

Okay, so it's bulletproof for PvE.

It's really not though. At least for me, I find that there's a balance between giving and receiving damage in the boss fights. While having higher vitality (more HP) lets you survive longer, unless you can also dish out a lot of damage the fights can become incredibly difficult.

Basically, the question is how many times you can hit the boss by taking advantage of their timing versus how many times you screw up trying to take advantage of their timing.

If you have more HP you can screw up a few more times but if you're not dealing much damage you end up having to avoid screw ups for a long time in some boss fights.

Then there are the fights like the Four Kings where you really want to be doing higher DPS or else things get really messy.

Personally, I found the easiest build for PvE to be a sorcery build focused on high DPS. With a high enough intelligence you can deal a lot of ranged damage, which makes avoiding being hit that much easier.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#12

Post by millstone » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 6:47 AM UTC

Rickasaurus wrote: post #4

Having played both Demon and Dark souls, I think Demon souls was only better in that it flushed out the Maiden and the monumentals in a way which was deliberate and set the tone of the game. Dark Souls could have used something along these lines, but in every other respect it's the better game. From the improved enemy AI, to balance in the weapons and crafting, to the variety of locations and enemies, and don't forge…

The Solaire saga in Dark Souls was interesting and compelling, though not quite as rich as the Maiden.

Demon Souls was also better in that there was no selling of inventory. Anything that you could not use, would not use, or was inferior to your current equipment, you just dropped. Dark Souls introduced the Frampt “merchant” and allowed you to profit from selling stuff, leading to a Diablo-style loot hoarding. Fortunately the prices were low enough to not affect the game too badly.

The linked-to article nailed it: Dark Souls had its own style of black humor, where your death was the joke. Frampt was whimsical and weird and felt out of place for lots of reasons. Other than the doggy-dragon, Dark Souls was the better game in every way.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#13

Post by roarroar » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 7:03 AM UTC

autarch wrote: post #11

roarroar wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so it's bulletproof for PvE.

It's really not though. At least for me, I find that there's a balance between giving and receiving damage in the boss fights. While having higher vitality (more HP) lets you survive longer, unless you can also dish out a lot of damage the fights can become incredibly difficult. Basically, the question is how many times you can hit the boss by taking advantage of their timing versus how many times you screw up trying…

A Fire Uchigatna+6 or +7 makes Four Kings easy if you have 20 estus flasks and plenty of vitality. Since this weapon doesn't scale with stats you barely have to alter your build to use it. I'm not saying it's the only viable build, nor the only fun one. I'm saying that the builds aren't exactly a work of genius, which is I suppose unavoidable when on your first run there are basically zero clues as to what's to come. For example, how are you supposed to know that Four Kings will need high DPS? A better way to do all this would be to foreshadow every boss in some way. For example, NG being a very cut-down version of the game with simplified, shorter areas and weaker bosses, with NG+ being the real deal deal. This is basically how everyone who really loves the game plays it anyway: bumble around through your first play-through, then on the second and third goes you can start making more conscious choices, since you have some idea of what's to come.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#14

Post by mekpro » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 7:09 AM UTC

I found that most of the fun in this game can be easily destroyed by FAQs and Youtube. I myself get very frustrated by Sen Fortress's Bonfire that i can't resist the urge to get an answer from wiki. After read this, I find myself regretted because i had missed the crucial experience of this game. Explore or dead !

I wish I could forget everything about this game so that I can innocently play it from the start again.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#15

Post by octaveguin » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 7:14 AM UTC

roarroar wrote: post #3

Dark Souls is a bigger, less polished version of Demon's Souls. It has a problem with hidden information that can only be discovered through trial-and-error. Demon's Souls was like this too, but the scope was small enough that it didn't cause big problems. Not sure what there is to praise about the character builds. In both games there's an easy and obvious way to get a bulletproof character: plow everything you have…

Diablo 2 was arguably terribly designed similarly - character builds required external information to progress to the harder difficulties. Not to mention what I'm sure the designers weren't intending at first - repeat farming over and over of the same content.

In the end, this became what made it such a huge hit. The fact that you had to study character builds made a sort of meta game.

Minecraft is another example where you have a wiki tabbed while you play.

And lets not even get started on dwarf fortress - the awful UI is the game.

I believe the metagame is whats at work in all these. A lack of tutorials and good ui feels somehow more authentic and rewarding.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#16

Post by roarroar » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 7:26 AM UTC

octaveguin wrote: post #15

roarroar wrote: post #3

Dark Souls is a bigger, less polished version of Demon's Souls. It has a problem with hidden information that can only be discovered through trial-and-error. Demon's Souls was like this too, but the scope was small enough that it didn't cause big problems. Not sure what there is to praise about the character builds. In both games there's an easy and obvious way to get a bulletproof character: plow everything you have…

Diablo 2 was arguably terribly designed similarly - character builds required external information to progress to the harder difficulties. Not to mention what I'm sure the designers weren't intending at first - repeat farming over and over of the same content. In the end, this became what made it such a huge hit. The fact that you had to study character builds made a sort of meta game. Minecraft is another example wh…

It reeks of autism. You know it's bad because it forces you out of the game to look at some web page. It's basically showing total contempt for the aesthetics and fantasy of the game in favor of the endless cataloging and retrieval of pointless information.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#17

Post by tomlu » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 8:05 AM UTC

The author neglected to mention my favourite trap in Sen's fortress.

There's an elevator you can get on that if you don't get off in time will bring you headfirst into a bunch of spikes. The genius part is the elevator floor is covered in blood, a hint you would certainly notice if you take your time and proceed cautiously. This is the sort of thing that makes every death feel deserved, which is pivotal to the souls series.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#18

Post by zainny » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 8:09 AM UTC

What really annoys me about Dark Souls is the shitty PC port. They're still selling tons of copies of the game for PC because of all the silly hype around it, and yet the game is virtually unplayable - even with all the mouse fixes, mods, etc. Why is it acceptable for game developers to completely abandon their customer base and continue to sell a broken product?

I picked up the game during a Steam sale, spent a good few hours trying to make it playable with a variety of mods, fixes, etc. and then just gave up completely. And for those few hours I did play it, nothing about it stood out to me as being incredible or ingenious.

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#19

Post by cheald » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 8:25 AM UTC

zainny wrote: post #18

What really annoys me about Dark Souls is the shitty PC port. They're still selling tons of copies of the game for PC because of all the silly hype around it, and yet the game is virtually unplayable - even with all the mouse fixes, mods, etc. Why is it acceptable for game developers to completely abandon their customer base and continue to sell a broken product? I picked up the game during a Steam sale, spent a good…

DSFix and an Xbox controller makes it perfectly playable, IMO. What problems did you run into?

Re: A Close Look at Dark Souls’ Ingenious Difficulty

#20

Post by n1ghtmare_ » Thu, Sep 05, 2013, 8:27 AM UTC

Honestly, this is in my top 5 all time favorite games. It's brilliant. By the time I finished it, it wasn't difficult anymore, you just have to master it. Can't wait for Dark Souls 2.