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Didn't Get Enough Sleep? You Might As Well Be Drunk

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Re: Didn't Get Enough Sleep? You Might As Well Be Drunk

#41

Post by ketralnis »

aliciahatt wrote: post #28
plorkyeran wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope employers stay away from their employees sleep. In theory it could turn out well, if it turned out that the numbers said it was better to pay people to take an hour nap in the middle of the work day. In practice I assume it'd turn out to be more of a mandatory unpaid nap, of course.

Thank you for your input. Upside of employees knowing how the staff sleep overall (nothing to a specific employee) could possibly lead to a better shift schedule and the ability to feel less fatigued in your free time

Or it could lead to employers demanding that employees give them all of their alert time rather than more normal hours.

"Could possibly lead" isn't really a good reason to start giving up privacy

Re: Didn't Get Enough Sleep? You Might As Well Be Drunk

#42

Post by JHof »

patbyrne wrote: post #15
dimitar wrote: post #3

Good: * The idea is pretty interesting; I feel like I'm drunk, but I'm undersleeping the last few months. * The major reason I don't get enough sleep is that I need to binge from time to time to get things done or enjoy life. I think I'll do better if I could track my sleeping needs before I get to feel like I do now Bad: * TA looks like an advertisement * The website uses words like "your workforce". I hope employer…

I think you might be right except for airlines!!! I wouldn't want to be on a plane with a pilot that doesn't sleep well.

I think pilots wearing Readibands would quickly reveal that a large number of airline pilots are working well into what would be considered a fatigued state.

Re: Didn't Get Enough Sleep? You Might As Well Be Drunk

#43

Post by 6d0debc071 »

jessaustin wrote: post #32
sliverstorm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, the real reason the limit is there is because the greatest danger is the terrible driver, drunk. When you take 30% worse of "terrible", you get "really terrible".

That's the reason ing , but to me it just proves that drunk driving shouldn't be a crime separate from poor driving. (I guess it would be OK as an aggravating factor for other traffic crimes.) Someone who drives acceptably while drunk drives acceptably, period.

I don't know. You can't, unfortunately, stop everyone who drives poorly. Too many people do - and even if they just got off with points on their license, quickly enough they'd be banned and then out of work.

Seriously, I can drive for fifteen minutes and see dozens of people who are driving too close together or committing some other sin. All those people who, just going into a corner, you see lighting off their brakes one after another - when all you, a little further back, have to do is roll your toes back a little to take some of the speed out.

Considering random breath tests don't seem to be that big of a thing, (I think - https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q723.htm - that they can't do truly random testing,) they're probably picking the people liable to be the worst examples anyway. Which I suspect is the most we can practically hope for at the moment.

Re: Didn't Get Enough Sleep? You Might As Well Be Drunk

#44

Post by gonehome »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #8

(This is mainly unrelated but simply fascinating) I came across an article on this same topic, regarding a man who after being shot in the head could no longer sleep..... and apparently lived (as a fully functioning human being??) for 40 more years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kern The problem is that I cannot find any scholarly articles that mention him (searched on Google Scholar, do not have access to other…

This reminds of a rare genetic disease that prevented those effected by it from sleeping, eventually leading to death. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_familial_insomnia

Not sure if there's more conclusive information about this, but it does make me more skeptical of the article you linked.

Re: Didn't Get Enough Sleep? You Might As Well Be Drunk

#45

Post by ninjin »

WayneDB wrote: post #40
mayanksinghal wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both studies were done by the same scientist who seems to have other stakes in the process than just academic curiosity.

The chief scientist, Sudhir Shah, was the same each time and you're right that he is "an ardent proponent of Jain philosophy" according to his wikipedia page. However, both tests were done with other researchers (in 2010, with "a team of 35 researchers from the Indian Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences (DIPAS) as well as other organizations") in the largest hospital chain in one of the most industria…

> "...both tests were done with other researchers (in 2010, with "a team of 35 researchers from the Indian Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences (DIPAS) as well as other organizations") in the largest hospital chain in one of the most industrialized states in India."

But this is exactly the problem, scientists in general are not trained to investigate cases where the phenomena studied is adversarial and has an interest in a given outcome. I am not saying that the man is a fraud, I don't know, but the mindset that you need to spot it will be very different from what most scientists hold. This is why I personally think that these kinds of people should at least initially be analysed by magicians and others who are trained in misdirection and illusion.

> "It saddens me that modern scientists are such cynics."

The amount of evidence required is usually proportional to the strength of the claim. In this case the man is asking us to suspend close to everything we know about how the human body processes waste and its energy requirements. Claiming that this is possible due to a deity. These are very grandiose claims and I think a lot of people are rightfully sceptical rather than cynical.

Re: Didn't Get Enough Sleep? You Might As Well Be Drunk

#46

Post by withad »

WayneDB wrote: post #40
mayanksinghal wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both studies were done by the same scientist who seems to have other stakes in the process than just academic curiosity.

The chief scientist, Sudhir Shah, was the same each time and you're right that he is "an ardent proponent of Jain philosophy" according to his wikipedia page. However, both tests were done with other researchers (in 2010, with "a team of 35 researchers from the Indian Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences (DIPAS) as well as other organizations") in the largest hospital chain in one of the most industria…

India on the whole has a lot of trouble with this sort of thing. One of the skeptics who criticised the Prahlad Jani experiments, Sanal Edamaraku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanal_Edamaruku), had to leave the country to avoid arrest under outdated blasphemy laws for pointing out that the supposedly miraculous tears of a statue of Jesus were actually from a leaking sewage pipe. More recently, another noted skeptic, Narendra Dabholkar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narendra_Dabholkar), was shot dead shortly after making significant progress towards outlawing some very lucrative "mystical" practices.

And a large, well-funded project doesn't guarantee reliability. Science involves a certain amount of trust of your peers and scientists studying these claimed phenomena often miss tricks by the participants that someone trained in deception wouldn't (there's a reason so many skeptics and "debunkers" are magicians by training). Look at Project Alpha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Alpha) - a couple of amateur street magicians were able to make a whole department of researchers believe they had psychic powers for years without even being challenged.

When it comes down to it, science is about evidence. That's why scientists were able to overturn ideas like geocentrism - they examined them and they didn't fit with the evidence, so they had to go. Theories that had seemed "impossible" to some (certainly not all) people before them, like the Earth going round the Sun, did fit the evidence when scientifically examined and they became the accepted scientific consensus (to cut a long story short).

Scientists dismissing these studies aren't doing so based just "on their own observations". There's a very solid base of scientific, verifiable evidence that says that people need to eat. I don't think it's overly cynical to say that a couple of flaky studies should do little to change anyone's mind.

Re: Didn't Get Enough Sleep? You Might As Well Be Drunk

#47

Post by WayneDB »

withad wrote: post #39
WayneDB wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prahlad Jani has yet to be debunked and he was observed twice (in 2003, 2010) round the clock for up to 15 days without food and water intake or waste movements. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/International/man-eat-drink/sto... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prahlad_Jani Very credulous. But, as the wise man says "We'll see." :)

That's probably the one I was thinking of when I mentioned people going without water being allowed to bathe. There's quite a few red flags there - just one researcher doing the experiments (despite offers from other teams and noted skeptics like Sanal Edamaraku to investigate), the research never being published in a journal, the fact that he noticeably lost weight over just ten days, the CCTV coverage being incompl…

The first time he was tested, he dropped a small amount of weight and the second time he didn't. Neither test was only done by one scientist and the second test was a much larger fanfare with Indian defense/government researchers present.

Bathing was also observed as was gargling (what he spit out was also measured). Even so - these "red flags" come from the same scientists that you don't trust. So, they should not support your cynicism in any way.

What are we left with?

  - Not published in a journal.
  - Incomplete CCTV coverage.
Also, it should be stated that according to many cynics, the CCTV coverage is incomplete because Jani moved out of view for moments at a time. He also received visitors and was allowed to take sun baths.

Anyway, I'm not really here to debate this case. I am just being an anti-cynic because it's been shown time and again that even the smartest people in the world have been dead wrong about what they think they know. Here is a terrific video that sums up this point very well - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8V8rtdXnLA

Re: Didn't Get Enough Sleep? You Might As Well Be Drunk

#48

Post by withad »

WayneDB wrote: post #47
withad wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's probably the one I was thinking of when I mentioned people going without water being allowed to bathe. There's quite a few red flags there - just one researcher doing the experiments (despite offers from other teams and noted skeptics like Sanal Edamaraku to investigate), the research never being published in a journal, the fact that he noticeably lost weight over just ten days, the CCTV coverage being incompl…

The first time he was tested, he dropped a small amount of weight and the second time he didn't. Neither test was only done by one scientist and the second test was a much larger fanfare with Indian defense/government researchers present. Bathing was also observed as was gargling (what he spit out was also measured). Even so - these "red flags" come from the same scientists that you don't trust. So, they should not s…

Most of the issues with the experiment were identified by other scientists, not the ones involved in the study. That's probably why it was never released in any reputable journal - the study design wouldn't pass peer review. Incidentally, releasing your results to the press before you've published academically is also a fairly reliable warning sign of pseudoscience.

When the entire experiment is based around constantly monitoring someone, any time where you can't see them is a pretty serious flaw in the experiment design. Even if he was only out of view for a few seconds (and I wouldn't mind a source for that), that's all it would take to drink some gargling/bathing water or quickly have a snack that some devotee left hidden.

Smart people can certainly be wrong and often have been. Sometimes due to their own preexisting beliefs and prejudices, sometimes because they were limited by the knowledge and technology of their time, and sometimes even because they're being deliberately deceived and their particularly expertise isn't suited to catching it (I cited Project Alpha in a comment below and there are many other examples).

The key thing about science, and remember that organised science is a relatively new idea in the span of human history and one that's made tremendous advances possible in a short time, is that it's about a consensus backed up by the evidence, not any single scientist's opinion. Sure, sometimes one scientist or a small team will come up with a radically new opinion in some field. When their evidence is examined and their experiments repeated by their peers, sometimes they're a Gallileo. More often they're a Pons and Fleischmann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion#Fleischmann.E2.80.9...). But if, and quite rightly only if, they've got good evidence and a theory that fits the facts better than any other, the consensus will shift.

It's not about cynicism, it's about rationality and skepticism. As the old saying goes, keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.

Re: Didn't Get Enough Sleep? You Might As Well Be Drunk

#49

Post by educating »

Someone with sleep apnea here. I think it is great when the problem of lack of sleep gets more attention. Though my snoring and pain at night has caused my sleep apnea, the lack of sleep is what has caused all of my health and mental problems. I've tried CPAP, dental appliance, and every other type of device you can think of. Ended up with a dental appliance but I still get very little REM and not enough sleep in-general. I haven't woken well-rested in maybe 25 years. It is horrible. Depression, weight problems, CRS (can't remember shit), people think I'm an idiot, often irritated, hopeless, tired all the time. Basically, it really, really sucks.

Re: Didn't Get Enough Sleep? You Might As Well Be Drunk

#50

Post by tassl »

WayneDB wrote: post #40
mayanksinghal wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both studies were done by the same scientist who seems to have other stakes in the process than just academic curiosity.

The chief scientist, Sudhir Shah, was the same each time and you're right that he is "an ardent proponent of Jain philosophy" according to his wikipedia page. However, both tests were done with other researchers (in 2010, with "a team of 35 researchers from the Indian Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences (DIPAS) as well as other organizations") in the largest hospital chain in one of the most industria…

>It saddens me that modern scientists are such cynics. History has proven that "impossible" is just a point of view and that many things widely believed to be impossible in the past are completely doable.

Science is based on skepticism, you can't believe something just because somebody tells you to or because you hope it is true, and you can't trust all sources of information. This is why there is a system (we can admit it is improvable) where experts on a certain area review the quality and reproducibility of a work to ensure it reaches a certain/minimum level.

Obviously, something that we consider true today can be accepted as false tomorrow (even though usually in science more than false, the change is to not complete). And that's precisely the power of science.

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