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AT&T gives DEA 26 years of phone call records to wage war on drugs

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201–210 of 211 posts

Re: AT&T gives DEA 26 years of phone call records to wage war on drugs

#201
post #39
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, no, no. Making them illegal makes more violent crime. Let me put you in rehab for your coffee addiction or beer habit, ok?

Coffee addictions don't lead to more violent crime or robbery, as far as I know. Does making meth and crack legal make less crime (violent or robbery) than if their usage was nil? I highly doubt it.

Coffee addictions don't lead to more violent crime or robbery, as far as I know.

You don't know at all, because it's never been illegal. However, there is plenty of evidence that making it illegal would indeed lead to robbery and violence.

Re: AT&T gives DEA 26 years of phone call records to wage war on drugs

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a place where methamphetamine is legal and freely available is a scary place" Like the USA in the 1960's? Benzedrine was sold over the counter to children and widely used throughout the country. Now benzedrine is probably less dangerous than methamphetamine because it's slightly less hydrophobic, which often makes addiction less trouble. Meth showed up as the very similar black market substitute when benzedrine was…

>If we re-legalized dexedrine or benzedrine over the counter, the trouble would mostly go away. We'd have: Rehab for getting women off of diet pills. Same thing for truckers, just for a different reason. And we'd read about students abusing diet pills to study with.

You mean the same kinds of medical management we have right now for tapering off certain anti-depressants and maintaining pain and sleep-aid prescriptions for people with money and/or good insurance. Not to mention the problems associated with Big Mac abuse.

The frameworks we would desire in a legalized environment are already here, but for some reason truckers and women make it an insurmountable challenge. Something about tattoos and/or menstruation? I'm not sure I follow the logic at work here.

Basically, a portion of the money currently going to prisons would be redirected to medical assistance, which is not the worst result emerging from recent history that I can imagine.

Re: AT&T gives DEA 26 years of phone call records to wage war on drugs

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If we re-legalized dexedrine or benzedrine over the counter, the trouble would mostly go away. We'd have: Rehab for getting women off of diet pills. Same thing for truckers, just for a different reason. And we'd read about students abusing diet pills to study with.

You mean the same kinds of medical management we have right now for tapering off certain anti-depressants and maintaining pain and sleep-aid prescriptions for people with money and/or good insurance. Not to mention the problems associated with Big Mac abuse. The frameworks we would desire in a legalized environment are already here , but for some reason truckers and women make it an insurmountable challenge. Somethin…

>You mean the same kinds of medical management we have right now for tapering off certain anti-depressants and maintaining pain and sleep-aid prescriptions for people with money and/or good insurance. Not to mention the problems associated with Big Mac abuse.

Yes, almost nothing would change WRT abuse of drugs.

>I'm not sure I follow the logic at work here.

Logic? In the War on Drugs?

>Basically, a portion of the money currently going to prisons would be redirected to medical assistance, which is not the worst result emerging from recent history that I can imagine.

Hopefully a lot of money would be diverted from law enforcement to mental health treatment.

Re: AT&T gives DEA 26 years of phone call records to wage war on drugs

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Seriously if AT&T doing this, there is no reason to believe that other providers do not. The article says AT&T has the data for any telco that uses AT&T switches. This is a little odd, given that the company currently known as AT&T is not the same company that used to manufacture switches; but, if this has been going on for 26 years, I suppose the government would have insisted it continue across corporate splits an…

IIRC, lots of other companies selling telecom use AT&T infrastructure (infrastructure owned by AT&T now, not infrastructure built by a different company called AT&T in the past.) There are a much greater number of companies that you can buy local and long-distance service from than companies that actually operate the physical infrastructure. I suspect that current infrastructure is the "AT&T switches" that are releva…

That makes more sense, thanks.

Re: AT&T gives DEA 26 years of phone call records to wage war on drugs

#205

As a meta-commentary on this category of issues, I tend to be against these sort of substance bans (PEDs[1] in sports is another timely example), and I often see that people who support such measures tend to talk about what things would be like if these substances were completely gotten rid of[2]. To me, this is complete fantasy because there's never been a substance ban that has been very effective at reducing usage…

> To me, this is complete fantasy because there's never been a substance ban that has been very effective at reducing usage of a popular substance

That statement is more or less true in a broad sense, but at the level of individual substances, bans can be quite effective. There have been cases of recreational drugs effectively disappearing due to changes in law or de facto bans. It has happened especially with pharmaceuticals. Quaalude, a prescription sleeping pill, was popular recreationally in the 70s and early 80s (see, e.g., Cheech and Chong's Up In Smoke), but it was put into schedule I of the CSA in the mid 80s, which made it illegal for all purposes. Supposedly, there were bootleg versions for a short time, but it has long since faded into legend (control of precursor chemicals might have been the final decisive blow). The same happened with many prescription drugs of the 60s and 70s, which were either banned outright, severely restricted, and/or voluntarily withdrawn by the manufacturer due to pressure. Barbiturates used to be popular, but, although they're currently in schedule II and not banned outright, they're prescribed so infrequently that they're as good as gone. The most recent prescription to disappear due to gov't action was Rohypnol (but I suspect the popularity of this drug was overblown). If you read the text of the CSA, you'll find a long list of obscure names of drugs of all types that are not actively traded anywhere on earth, some of which probably never had significant markets, but others of which certainly did, or could have. It's true that overall, drug prohibition has been fantastically ineffective at eliminating drug use; cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine, and marijuana continue to flood in, supplied by international drug trafficking organizations. But there's a cat-and-mouse game that goes on, and some drugs more than others are vulnerable to government action.

Re: AT&T gives DEA 26 years of phone call records to wage war on drugs

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people who get frustrated with recent attention to surveillance because "Of course this is going on, haven't you heard of Room 641A? I've been talking about this for years! > Grrr, I am upset that I am no longer unique for my suspicions." The first part is entirely true, but the second part is a misplaced caricature. If one wasn't operating with this threat model pre-Snowden, they mustn't have been analyzing the si…

The first part does not warrant frustration that the issue is being covered. The first part alone should render you glad that the issue is now being given the attention it deserves. The people who complain that it is now receiving attention are doing it, I think , out of frustration that they are not being adequately recognized for being ahead of the curve. They feel vindicated but they think that nobody notices that…

I know the tack you're referring to, it's similar to dismissing things as "first world problems", and I consider it petty and divisive. But I don't think it encompasses all of the told-you-so reactions either.

Communications freedom is basically my pet issue. I'm glad the issue is getting attention, but don't feel enthusiastic about how the reaction is playing out.

The primary response seems to consist of politically-aimed incredulousness, as if the NSA will ever stop intercepting everything they physically can. It could have purpose if this were going to be the event that caused dismantling of USG, but it's not.

What's really lacking in the popular dialog is self-reflection about how the pervasiveness is entirely due to people's own poor, compulsive, and lazy technology choices. The status quo in the non-privacy threads is still enthusiasm for the latest shiny centralized trap from Google/Apple/Facebook/Dropbox/otherWebStartup.

The tide of awareness has not actually shifted until it starts being socially uncool to use a Gmail.com address, let Facebook mediate your social life, electively upgrade your pocket tracker for a new facade, rely on software that's controlled by someone else, or build new products in walled gardens.

So it seems like dispassionate/condescending "I've been telling you this all along" is an appropriate way to point out that there's been plenty of people who've been preaching the solution before you bothered to realize there was a problem. And if you'd actually like to empower yourself, you really do need to follow their inconvenient advice instead of seeking easy gratification through the latest fad kickstarter campaign or https site with flawed marketing spiel.

Re: AT&T gives DEA 26 years of phone call records to wage war on drugs

#207
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Require funding or get funding? Doesn't a privatised prison derive a profit from its "use" of prisoners (getting/requiring funding) in the same way that slaveholders once derived a profit from their use of slaves?

Most prisons, whether for profit or not, require money to keep going. The money ultimately comes from society via taxes. But the net effect is it costs society thrice to imprison a person: fewer taxes collected, less goods/services produced and cost to imprison.

Ultimately, private prisons draw funds from those they hold captive, many of whom are imprisoned for minor issues.

Re: AT&T gives DEA 26 years of phone call records to wage war on drugs

#208
post #31
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and for there to be a war on drugs in the first place. Eliminate the fundamentals, and there should be no issues at all, really.

I have a problem with a war on marijuana, or violating the Constitution during the war on drugs. But otherwise I don't have a problem with a war on meth or crack or other drugs that increase the odds that I'll be a victim of violent crime or robbery. (I'd punish simple users with rehab rather than prison.)

> I have a problem with ... violating the Constitution during the war on drugs

But what's the constitutional justification for having any war on drugs in the first place? Alcohol prohibition took a constitutional amendment, and that's been repealed.

Re: AT&T gives DEA 26 years of phone call records to wage war on drugs

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They call non-smartphones 'feature phones' and unlike 3g network phones, they all have gps as part of the CDR. LTE has it as well, only 3g doesn't. 3g network stuff uses old PPoE because phone companies are lazy.

There is no 'gps' in CDR, there is the ID of the tower, which can be mapped to a geolocation. Especially in urban environments, the location of the tower is pretty tightly correlated with the location of the phone. Looking at CDRs over time, you can get an even better idea. 3G is not immune from this. There is a record of which tower the phone was registered at. The GPs solution is good, but it requires a lot of phon…

The definition of CDR, even though there's a standard, isn't really standardized between companies, networks, or hardware. The switches actually puke a huge blob of semi-trustworthy data in a long record and internally we called it something other than a CDR, though other companies may call it that. Then we had a bunch of other nicknames for different subsets of the data, the smallest one was referred to internally to the lab as a CDR. The full data record we pulled from the feature phone included any GPS reported. We couldn't get the exact same field from a 3g phone because that network was designed so the switch was kind of brainless about location, other than the direction from the base station. I think it was, at the time the network was built, the laziest possible way to achieve tolerable TCP/IP traffic throughput so that's what they did. Literally PPPoE.

The method described by multiple people in response to my post is how they attempt to triangulate 3g phones for law enforcement, and if a local sheriff from Cracker Barrel, Arkansas or something requests the data that's what they get: the subset of the call record and the estimated location along with a big disclaimer "THIS MAY NOT EVEN BE ACCURATE TO WITHIN 2KM!" We did constant hands-on tests trying to refine it. Statistically it seems like a good idea but when research tried it on specific people (ourselves) we ended up with no confidence it would work accurately even 3/5 times. We tested it in suburbs, cities, rural, all have different weird factors and significant problems associated with the technique. As a basic example you can be near a cell tower, which have directional antennae, standing at a specific angle to a couple tall buildings and the reflected signal will appear to have you standing in two places at once, or even teleporting between two locations on a minute by minute basis, at which point the data is useless. In theory we can model what highway you're driving on, in reality it's a coin flip what area code you're in.

I think this is also critical if you're thinking of law enforcement applications of this: the base station switches do not report the data back instantly or even in the order they receive it. So our fastest estimate if everything worked perfectly was a 3-4 hour turnaround. Sometimes one of the relevant CDRs for triangulation comes back THREE DAYS after the call is made. Incidentally this is the same data that would be collected by the NSA under the Snowden thing, so military applications would also be limited at best. I mean, if they were dumb enough to try to use it that way they might end up hitting schoolbuses or weddings with cruise missiles or something, and no one wants that.

The result of this was a heavy focus on femtocells, which have such a small area they know where you are because you can't possibly be outside the Starbucks or whatever. It turned out to have other smaller problems: femtocells get overpowered by nearby base stations all the time. I don't know how they were trying to use the one in the van when they caught those boston bombers but I expect the idea was the phone only knows to jump to the strongest signal and that way they could just stop any calls they made. In a neighborhood with a close base station this would be a lot less effective even if the femtocell was massively overpowered, the base station stuff is just this blast of signal and it reflects everywhere, the guy would get through or not randomly.

I think the most damning thing here is that no one who participated in the research would ever testify in a court that the method in question definitely places the phone in question at 123 Cherry Lane, or on the same block as Cherry Lane, or in Cherry Village, or if there was a car involved even in Cherry County. On the other hand, when your shiny new LTE phone is reporting back its gps on a millisecond basis with every call and tons of http headers, things will get a lot easier. For them. I won't be doing that kind of work again.

Re: AT&T gives DEA 26 years of phone call records to wage war on drugs

#210
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most prisons, whether for profit or not, require money to keep going. The money ultimately comes from society via taxes. But the net effect is it costs society thrice to imprison a person: fewer taxes collected, less goods/services produced and cost to imprison.

Ultimately, private prisons draw funds from those they hold captive, many of whom are imprisoned for minor issues.

The last part is agreed, but the inmates don't pay for their own incarceration (this aint Brazil yet).

The agencies that administer prisons get their funding from taxes, and the the level of funding maybe based on population.

But ultimately, society (taxes, etc.) pays for it.

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