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Our Newfound Fear of Risk

schneier.com

111–120 of 195 posts

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) High levels of security theater mean long entrance lines in front of (perceived) high value targets. Therefore instead of attacking the high value target the security theater is protecting, the line of people waiting to enter gets attacked. I get nervous waiting in lines knowing any terrorist who isn't an idiot has their sights on me. This isn't going to happen because a bunch of people in line at an airport isn't…

At risk of never flying unmolested again--you do realize that you've identified the lacking qualities in the aforementioned attack plan, and that those can be readily addressed by such simple actions as hitting more places at once over a longer period of time? The entire point of the article is that that sort of a analysis is ongoing, is that when you try to deal with an opponent you are dealing with something active…

That's what makes the security theater so annoying--it's clear that there are a dozen ways to stage a successful attack were one so inclined, none of which would be stopped or even slowed by our current (or any forseeable) measure.

Yes, but not a very large-scale one. You might like to consider that stuff like the NSA is also part of the security theater; the ambiguity over just what it is listening to, combined with the perception that it has a universal reach, primarily benefits the US in that it keeps antagonists awake at night worrying about the security of their own networks.

I think people need to realize that the number of Bad People in the world is really small, and that they shouldn't give up freedoms in hopes of somehow decreasing their exposure.

True, but it's also unrealistic to be indifferent to an obvious danger. I neither want nor intend to use the fire extinguisher in the corner of my kitchen, but I don't consider its purchase to be a waste of money.

Large state and private groups are much more harmful, especially because they turn Not Bad People into Annoyingly Inconvenient And Impersonally Malicious People.

I don't really agree with this - it's a retread of Rousseau's 'noble savage' theory. Of course, some people get radicalized is response to western actions, but some people are bigoted assholes to start with. Recall that one of Bin Laden's primary beefs was that the US had a military base on the sacred soil of Saudi Arabia (by Islamic standards), and this was just intolerable. Disapproving of US military installations on your non-US soil is entirely reasonable, blowing people up over it is not. Although the US had hand tangles with AQ before 9-11 (eg the USS Cole bombing, among others), the western response had been quite restrained, indeed proportionate. I don't think it's the inherent fault of the west that AQ is built upon an a reactionary and quite absolutist religious viewpoint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutbism).

Now, I do think that when you consider Islam is ~1400 years old and look at where Christianity was at a similar stage in its history, it might well be that schisms, reformation, and sectarian violence are just stages that you would expect Islamic society to go through; but that doesn't impose any obligation on us to accept the role of punching bag.

I don't share your belief that scale is the problem, and if we just keep everything local and avoid the formation of large states or corporations we'd have peace.

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#112
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's a ridiculous comparison, The fact of the matter is that those decisions are completely logical. I don't think shutting down an entire industry in a knee jerk reaction is logical. Gently paring down fossil fuel energy consumption is logical. I think the extreme reaction is the illogical mentality that he was talking about.

It's more than a knee jerk reaction though, there are a lot of reasons to speed up the switch to solar and renewables. Global warming may have been a catalyst, but it was going to happen eventually and they figured sooner rather than later.

Yes, but if you want to do something about global warming it'd be a lot smarter to keep the nuclear power stations running and take coal plants offline instead. Nuclear power has a spotty safety record overall, and the consequences of a mistake can be acutely disastrous, but coal is likewise a chronic disaster.

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#114
post #80

I think it's become a cultural thing, unfortunately. I've spent the last few years seeing the world, and the difference in attitudes between the people of many other countries and Americans at home is striking. We've become a fear-based culture. I have an anecdote from a month or two ago. My girlfriend--she's German--and I were in Boston's central park, where there's a wading pool for children. The place was extremel…

Which leads to a culture where everyone is afraid of touching kids that are not their own. It's really sad.

When my own kid was very young I was paranoid about touching him in public. It didn't stop me, but I was mindful of it, and I would occasionally feel I was getting extra scrutiny by some parent; a man not at work in the daytime, holding a young boy's hand.

Feh.

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#115
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't going to happen because a bunch of people in line at an airport isn't a high-value target. Tell that to the 35 people who died in a bomb-blast at Russia's biggest airport. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/24/us-russia-blast-ai...

OK, unlikely to happen. Did that make any great change in public consciousness? Obviously not.

Did that make any great change in public consciousness? Obviously not.

It was Russia, not the US. If you aren't russian you are unlikely to have any idea how it went over.

But more generally, "small" terrorist attacks happen way more frequently than the big ones, I expect that is because they are easier to pull off. White power types kill a handful of people each year in the US but you don't hear about them if you aren't tuned in because (a) they aren't brown (b) they are small events.

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#116
post #51
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk to some older folks. My dad describes walking to school with other schoolchildren in Montreal in the 1950s. They'd be alone, without adults, going miles. When playing, they were out dusk to dawn on city streets with no adult supervision.

That proves nothing other than your dad grew up in a particular way. The question the post you were replying to posed was: is this actually a new phenomenon? Or is it simply good ole day syndrome? I suspect it's more the latter.

It's not just his dad. Watch Lassie or Leave it to Beaver or Andy Griffith and take notes on what was considered good wholesome parenting at the time. When I grew up in the 70s I'd say if anything the typical parent was even more hands-off. It was absolutely nothing like what is considered proper now.

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#117
post #59
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying there weren't overprotective parents before? This thread is full of a lot of confirmation bias / society is going to hell in a hand basket type of discussion. Boy, kids these days, right? I'd like to see some facts because I don't find it very credible.

There have been a number of studies -- middle class children in Western countries now never go more than a couple of meters from their front door on their own. Growing up in the late 60's in New England, my parents kicked us out of the house in the morning during summers and no one thought twice about us unless we didn't show up for dinner. Children in American live under house arrest, they are used to having people…

I'm raising 5 of them in the States right now. I freely ignore most of these social mores. In our neighborhood my kids are among the most popular playmates. They actually went out and found friends so most of the children in the area know them. We don't trap them in the house and in fact frequently force them to leave so they aren't glued to the computer or Netflix.

We've had broken bones, cuts, scrapes and other injuries but they all know how to do limited first aid and are pretty cool in a crisis. I'm not worried about them at all.

My experiences are entirely anecdotal but it's an example showing that you don't have to feel trapped by those social mores.

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#118
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, unlikely to happen. Did that make any great change in public consciousness? Obviously not.

Did that make any great change in public consciousness? Obviously not. It was Russia, not the US. If you aren't russian you are unlikely to have any idea how it went over. But more generally, "small" terrorist attacks happen way more frequently than the big ones, I expect that is because they are easier to pull off. White power types kill a handful of people each year in the US but you don't hear about them if you ar…

You're making my point for me. There are a fair number of small scale terror attacks, and they don't change things that much because they are small. I grew up in Ireland and the UK, I have had plenty of occasion to consider small-scale terrorism since it was a very frequent occurrence at that time.

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#119
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more than a knee jerk reaction though, there are a lot of reasons to speed up the switch to solar and renewables. Global warming may have been a catalyst, but it was going to happen eventually and they figured sooner rather than later.

Yes, but if you want to do something about global warming it'd be a lot smarter to keep the nuclear power stations running and take coal plants offline instead. Nuclear power has a spotty safety record overall, and the consequences of a mistake can be acutely disastrous, but coal is likewise a chronic disaster.

> Nuclear power has a spotty safety record overall

This is so incredibly false it's on par with stating "commercial aviation has a spotty safety record overall".

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#120
post #79
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been a number of studies -- middle class children in Western countries now never go more than a couple of meters from their front door on their own. Growing up in the late 60's in New England, my parents kicked us out of the house in the morning during summers and no one thought twice about us unless we didn't show up for dinner. Children in American live under house arrest, they are used to having people…

I don't understand your last sentence. For most of what you list, nobody is forcing American parents to do this, they just choose to. Nothing stops you from letting your own children do things on their own.

There are numerous laws that enforce the no risk world on parents. These are things I did as a kid that are now illegal:

Rode in the back of a pick up truck Rode a bike without a helmet Sat in the front seat of a car before I was 8 years old. Swam in a pool that didn't have a fence around it Set off fireworks in the street in front of our house on July 4th Walked to and home from school alone (not illegal, but against the policy of our public school, and if we ignored it, I suspect we'd get a visit from child protective services).

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