Live data from Hacker News

English has been my pain for 15 years

antirez.com

281–290 of 308 posts

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I can find there's been around a thousand comments on the subject over the last week. Three comments called someone xenophobic, all of those where directed at pg. No comment called anyone else on HN a racist. So either I'm missing something or you're doing the exact same thing you accuse others of, making false accusations and overreacting.

I don't understand why people are engaging crassus instead of downvoting and flagging him into oblivion. It's a brand new account that's posting deeply hypocritical crap, and the only "real" identity tied to it is a new and spammy twitter account. Let's not pretend he's here for a conversation when every single available signal indicates that he's full of shit.

I love you too. Cheers.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTFPD is about people forbidding ideas because they are offensive , rather than having an honest debate about them. I'm perfectly willing to debate any idea with an honest opponent who's not going to get offended and start calling me names like "xenophobe" and "racist". Once name-calling starts, we are playing the grade school game of seeing who can invent the worst insult. No thanks.

From what I can find there's been around a thousand comments on the subject over the last week. Three comments called someone xenophobic, all of those where directed at pg. No comment called anyone else on HN a racist. So either I'm missing something or you're doing the exact same thing you accuse others of, making false accusations and overreacting.

PG said both accusations had been made in his follow up column.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTFPD is about people forbidding ideas because they are offensive , rather than having an honest debate about them. I'm perfectly willing to debate any idea with an honest opponent who's not going to get offended and start calling me names like "xenophobe" and "racist". Once name-calling starts, we are playing the grade school game of seeing who can invent the worst insult. No thanks.

>Once name-calling starts, we are playing the grade school game of seeing who can invent the worst insult. No thanks. So you repeatably referring to those you disagree with as the thought police is different in what ways?

Paul made a factual statement about the world in the spirit of helping others and his opponents responded with emotionally-charged labels[1]. This is dishonest bullying. I am responding with a label designed to attack labeling. So yes, it is hypocritical. But it does have a definite purpose in mind.

[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/labels.html

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#285
post #169
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cockney is relatively easy compared to some other local UK dialects/accents. My wife's family is from Stirlingshire in Scotland and they say stuff like: 'yer wain's greetin' -> 'the baby's crying'. 'I'm away tae get woor messages' -> 'I'm going to the shops for food' It took my a while before I could understand them :-)

Accent and dialect are distinct. Maybe it's because I was born in Scotland, spent my teenage years in the English midlands and north, now live in London and watch TV from the states, but I've never met an English speaker whose accent I had difficulty understanding. And that includes all the heavily accented (although generally second-gen) immigrants I've met. Dialect on the other hand means words I don't know the def…

Exactly. But it's obviously not just the accent thats at issue here. If you think about it, and try to do a good impersonation of someone talking in a different accent it has to include a bit of dialect and local grammatical idioms to make it convincing.

I assumed that the original comment about 'foreign accents' also encompassed the grammatical tics that foreign speakers often have. Someone speaking grammatically correct english in a strong accent is easily understood, but it only takes a very little grammatical mistake to change to meaning of a sentence. For example, an Italian colleague who missed out a 'to' and told me 'just a minute, I'll come over your desk' caused some admittedly slightly childish giggling in the office...

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#286
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This I suspect also makes us pretty unintelligible to a lot of secondary-English speakers. That definitely can be the case, also I observed intermitting slow and very fast speeds in the same sentence in order to put the emphasis in different parts of the sentence.

I suspect a lot of the problems with British English come from how many different influences we had in the origins of the language. It doesn't really make much sense because it's a weird bastardisation of Germanic, Latinate, and Celtic languages (with a few choice French words for good luck). The pacing when speaking it can be pretty wonky because the words don't really flow together like they do in other languages.…

If someone's less proficient, or slower to respond; I wait patiently or simplify my own English to make it easier to understand. I'm genuinely impressed by how much effort everyone else puts in to learning the language that I can't hold someone's skill in it against them

If all the people in the world reasoned like you we would all live in a better place..

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#287
post #5

English is so horrible because it has no discernable orthography. My favorite example is anti thesis -> antithesis. I mean what the fuck, my mothertongue german is the king of combined nouns but this change of pronounciation on concatenation doesnt happen ever. Or phonetical difference based on grammtic use as in the verb read. Horrible. I think it should be handled like the Finns and Koreans did. Throw all the irreg…

There are several major problems with theoretical English spelling reform: 1. A purely phonetic approach means that, even within the UK, I would spell everything differently from my colleagues from Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow etc etc. Not good. 2. English spelling tends to represent the "deep" structure of words rather than the ("shallow") representation - your "thesis - antithesis" is an excellent exa…

American English speaker here.

1. I'd say that the non-phonetic approach allowed this to happen in the first place. In languages where the writing system was pinned to a phonetic system, there is no room for saying something incorrectly. There is room for replacing words and sounds but at least the writing reflects the spoken versions.

2. If you want to go that far, then we ought to just adopt Chinese characters which go a step further and abstract out pronunciation from meaning. That is, it is possible to understand groupings of Chinese characters without even knowing pronunciation. But this system also creates additional problems.

3. I think we have the technology to "bridge" our roots to whatever we create in the future. Today it is actually possible to make something live for eternity thanks to the internet. One good application would be English writing reform if we are to accept that it is the linqua franca.

Consider the possible benefits:

* 2nd language learners will have a much easier learning curve and thus be able to transition from their first language to English more quickly * World communication would increase--I think this has war-stopping potential (or peace creating potential) * Translations would hopefully become more accurate (less secondary translation/interpretation needed)--things written in "new" English would be more accessible to a larger audience. * Areas dominated by native English speakers would open up to a larger audience, thus creating more competition and more contributions by people of other backgrounds other than pure English.

For example, right now we are seeing dominance in technology/internet by English speakers, but why should that remain the case? As such traveling to a non-English speaking country often feels like going back 5-10 years because much of their tech experience is based on companies paying for translations or waiting for local companies to copy the technology.

I actually think we have the capability of making "new English" for both existing native speakers and new speakers. For example for native speakers, we could write an input method that automatically identifies words, spelling, or grammatical structures that have been deprecated and may not be understood by "new English" learners.

We also have the ability to write and document English to new English translations and historical references. There will certainly be some fallout but we currently don't document many language shifts that happen even among smaller populations.

I'm sure many exceptional native English writers and culturally engrained speakers will balk at such an idea. My challenge would be to have them learn Chinese or some other not so closely related foreign language to the same fluency they can speak English in order for them to understand the pain of learning a new and complex language. Of course I am not happy with the loss of culture, but I think for the advancement of the world at large, such a path is inevitable.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#288
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2 remarks: * The Turkish written language has had a similar transformation. There are no dictation exercises beyond the age of 12 because it's too easy. * Dutch is a similar 'power language' you can combine any 2 nouns in any order to create new words. For a native speaker, the meaning then is obvious.

In Italian there are not dictation exercise beyond age of 8. ;)

Not even for punctuation and such?

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#289
post #230
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect any investor or investor group with enough data points to offer such a judgement would have said something similar 30 years ago (1983), or 50 years ago (1963), or 100 years ago (1913). Long-distance communication and migration is becoming more common: native English speakers (especially in North America) are getting more chances to hear and become familiar with the speech of people who do not have English a…

It is interesting that you bring up examples of these Irish/English plays, to me these are societies that turned static and frozen after the initial dynamism went away and irrelevant affiliations dominated. Around the time my fair lady came out, pg’s family immigrated away from England to the US. Wonder why? In any case, we are talking about Silicon Valley here. Not society in general. What made it special is this ab…

If you think that the UK and Ireland have been frozen in aspic since the 1920s, that suggests that you are very ignorant of the great many things that have happened in those countries, both of which would now be barely recognisable to anyone from the 20s.

If pg's ancestors emigrated from England, that is not in fact a judgement on it. The UK has exported a great many people to every corner of the globe, and received them in kind, because it is a very globally engaged collection of islands. By your twisted logic this must make it just about the worst country in the world.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#290
post #166
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you live that or and awe sound the same? I get or, oar and ore, but awe (such as awe shucks, or awesome) and aww sound nothing like or in the midwest.

Certainly in the UK, 'or' and 'awe' or very similar. But I'm pretty sure the same is true across the states. The 'awe' in 'awe, shucks' is not even really a word, just a sympathetic utterance in the same sort of class as 'um' and 'aaah', so I don't think it has an official spelling, just a phonetic approximation. It is certainly distinct from the word 'awe' that's the root of 'awesome'. Edit: I meant to point out tha…

What part of the UK? They are wildly different in Scotland, Northern England, Northern Ireland, in fact probably anywhere except for the south of England, and even there it doubtless varies.
Post reply on HN