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Hacker News comments I'm tired of seeing

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Re: Hacker News comments I'm tired of seeing

#211
post #2

Unfortunately there are too many useful rhetorical devices in the list, devices that serve a purpose. Ironically, the list starts off with "correlation is not causation," an expression that in most cases is raised for very good reasons -- for example, any popular science story that includes the word "linked" but without adequate qualifiers. If more people were science-literate, these platitudes wouldn't be necessary.…

"Correlation is not causation" started useful but has become less useful the more cliched it became. And OP is right that it's particularly useless among people who've already heard it. The whole reason people felt the need to mention "correlation is not causation" is that correlation is evidence of causation. Some people seem to think this catchphrase means the two are unrelated which is also false.

> The whole reason people felt the need to mention "correlation is not causation" is that correlation is evidence of causation.

No, without evidence that assumption is false. Correlation can only be evidence for an unexplained link, and even that is often undermined by desperate researchers' predisposition to offer any detected correlation as though it couldn't result from chance.

Given A and B, absent a plausible causative mechanism, and a correlation between them, possible explanations include:

* Chance -- quick, publish!

* B caused A.

* A caused B.

* An unevaluated cause C connects A and B.

If this seems to go to extremes in skepticism, well, remember that skepticism of new results is -- or should be -- the scientist's job.

Example: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v483/n7391/full/483531a...

Title: "Drug development: Raise standards for preclinical cancer research"

Quote: "Fifty-three papers were deemed 'landmark' studies (see 'Reproducibility of research findings'). It was acknowledged from the outset that some of the data might not hold up, because papers were deliberately selected that described something completely new, such as fresh approaches to targeting cancers or alternative clinical uses for existing therapeutics. Nevertheless, scientific findings were confirmed in only 6 (11%) cases. Even knowing the limitations of preclinical research, this was a shocking result."

> Some people seem to think this catchphrase means the two are unrelated which is also false.

But without evidence, without a rigorous scientific evaluation, that's a scientist's default assumption, an assumption that relies on the null hypothesis. Using the null hypothesis, one assumes there's nothing there, that the association between A and B results from chance, then looks for reliable evidence that might lead us to a different conclusion.

Re: Hacker News comments I'm tired of seeing

#212
post #130
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't a request for a source. It is like saying 'if you want others to believe this thing you are claiming publicly, you need to back it up better than asking us to take you on your word.'

What's the difference? To me, your formulation is just another somewhat passive-aggressive way of asking for a source.

Probably intent. The problem with uncited bold claims is that they can derail entire threads if not nipped in the bud immediately.

I understand that HN is not a debate team, but I don't think it's asking all that much for people to cite sources on something that's likely to be controversial.

It's a politeness thing, really. If you're making claims about something or other, link to WP, or Google, or somewhere out of consideration for your fellow reader. It doesn't take that much longer and significantly contributes to a discussion.

Meanwhile, not doing it in this troll-filled place called the internet tends to make people wonder A, why you didn't bother, and B, what kind of fast one you're trying to pull. Debate is adversarial, after all.

The [citation needed] is a quick and simple way to shift the onus back onto the OP where it belongs, and also serves to warn people who maybe didn't read the comment all too closely that shenanigans may be afoot. And often times that's all you get, because a distressingly high portion of people won't reply when challenged in this manner.

Re: Hacker News comments I'm tired of seeing

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A better algotithm calculating the karma as an average over all your comments maybe could help The metric I would most like to know is how many votes my comments got divided by the total number of words in my comments.

Wouldn't this favour the short smartarsery that's one of the not-done things hereabouts?

[deleted]

Re: Hacker News comments I'm tired of seeing

#214
Of all the cliches, I've hated "This" ever since I started seeing it on other forums years ago.

The only one that bugs me more is "tl;dr". People have become terrified of writing long text, so they apologize beforehand. Either stand by your long text or shorten it so it's not long. I skip every "tl;dr" summary. It adds nothing.

Re: Hacker News comments I'm tired of seeing

#215
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cliches get to be cliches because they're a good idea that everyone wants to reuse . And recycle. Until they're familiar and then over-familiar. The top-rating issue is simply symptomatic of the lack of insight of many of the folks clicking the little arrows over their first morning cup of coffee. News delivers a brief stimulus; commentary even briefer: the spasmodic twitch of the mousing fingertip merely signals the…

> The top-rating issue is simply symptomatic of the lack of insight of many of the folks clicking the little arrows over their first morning cup of coffee. Totally agree and it's hard to blame them. The real problem might be that people who are over-familiar with the cliche don't bother to down vote. Reminder to all: take the time to down vote over used cliches that bother you.

But there's no way to downvote an article. So I upvote the dismissive comment instead.

Re: Hacker News comments I'm tired of seeing

#216
post #89

The biggest problem with Hacker News comments -- actually, make that all comments -- is fundamental: the sort of people that leave comments are (more often than not) people that want something, ANYTHING, to say, not people that have something to say.

I think the karma system can also be a contributor to this. Any comment you make has the chance to get a few upvotes, regardless of how little it contributes to the conversation. So people just spam comments to get a few points here and there. This phenomena can be seen in forums without karma also but i think in places with karma it is usually worse, worst offenders being digg and reddit where everybody tries to mak…

The "average" (on your user page, seemingly over your last few comments) seems to matter more for how high your posts appear. I've found myself deliberately not replying when someone makes an interesting reply to a comment of mine a few days afterwards, because posting that reply brings my average down. Which is definitely a bug.

Re: Hacker News comments I'm tired of seeing

#217
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

anigbrowl is talking about "[making] an extraordinary or absolutist claim absent any evidence", and you're talking about "even when the comment is something where a source could be found rapidly using Google". These are not comparable cases, and so, I guess I don't see how your comment really addresses anigbrowl's. This is what I see. anigbrowl: there are cases where it's appropriate. You: it shouldn't be used everyw…

To be fair, the article is ALSO not talking about the case anigbrowl is talking about. I've seen "[citation needed]" abused more often as I've seen it used when somebody is "[making] an extraordinary or absolutist claim absent any evidence" And the main claim still holds: provide a link that disproves, descredits or calls into question the extraordinary claim. Or at least explain why you think it's extraordinary.

I guess you and the author are sensitive to different kinds of abuse than I am. What annoys me more are wild claims, and I often go away feeling it's not easy to counter this much reliance on misinformation. I am not very active on HN, and read only about 1% of the threads that make it to the front page. Whenever I saw [citation needed], I felt it was apt. Also, I did not get the impression that it was passive-aggressive behaviour.

Re: Hacker News comments I'm tired of seeing

#218
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Correlation is not causation" started useful but has become less useful the more cliched it became. And OP is right that it's particularly useless among people who've already heard it. The whole reason people felt the need to mention "correlation is not causation" is that correlation is evidence of causation. Some people seem to think this catchphrase means the two are unrelated which is also false.

> The whole reason people felt the need to mention "correlation is not causation" is that correlation is evidence of causation. No, without evidence that assumption is false. Correlation can only be evidence for an unexplained link, and even that is often undermined by desperate researchers' predisposition to offer any detected correlation as though it couldn't result from chance. Given A and B, absent a plausible ca…

> No, without evidence that assumption is false. Correlation can only be evidence for an unexplained link

I did not say it was conclusive evidence; I said it was evidence. I'm well aware that "A is correlated to B" does not prove "A causes B" or even "A causes B or B causes A", but it is a data point in favor.

Saying "We should evaluate other evidence before we decide if A causes B" is reasonable skepticism. Acting as though "A is correlated to B" has no bearing whatsoever on the question of whether A causes B is another matter.

(Not that I actually disagree with most of your post, mind you! The real message of "correlation is not causation" is "don't overrate this specific data point; it's a common mistake". But the realist shouldn't underrate it either.)

Re: Hacker News comments I'm tired of seeing

#219
post #14

If you start getting annoyed enough to post about it it's usually a sign to take a break.

How about a new site to rekindle the nostalgia when HN was small..?

They already exist. But the only way to keep a site small is to not invite many people to it.

Re: Hacker News comments I'm tired of seeing

#220

The comment that gets my anal beads in a knot the most: "Citation please" or "Can you link to a study that.." etc. Sometimes people (myself included) just like to comment. Fart out a completely subjective opinion without worrying about the little army of pedantic party poopers coming along to spoil the fun. It's just a discussion board after all. Must everything be quite so serious. all. the. time. ?

>Must everything be quite so serious. all. the. time. ?

Yes. Yes it must. It's what makes HN unique and wonderful. There are thousands of other discussion boards that aren't as serious.

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