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How Google’s Jeff Dean became the Chuck Norris of the Internet

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Re: How Google’s Jeff Dean became the Chuck Norris of the Internet

#41

Google (and by extension Jeff Dean) have made their greatest contribution in that they successfully popularized niche computer science with decent implementations. I think a point that is often lost is that Google invents very little computer science; they take obscure computer science that in most cases has already been implemented somewhere and do a very good, high visibility implementation of that computer science…

This is a wonderfully-executed middlebrow dismissal. I hope pg adds it to his detection corpus ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4714217 )

That's exactly what I was thinking, but I couldn't find the link. Too bad it's still the top comment.

Re: How Google’s Jeff Dean became the Chuck Norris of the Internet

#42

Google (and by extension Jeff Dean) have made their greatest contribution in that they successfully popularized niche computer science with decent implementations. I think a point that is often lost is that Google invents very little computer science; they take obscure computer science that in most cases has already been implemented somewhere and do a very good, high visibility implementation of that computer science…

What's odd to me is the focus on specific individuals. For one thing, why not Dean/Ghemawat facts, at least? I always hear they participate on an equal basis; or does Dean carry Ghemawat like Sherlock carries Watson? Furthermore, when I actually read things about such universally-held geniuses, the hype often contrasts sharply with the moderate, logical introspections of the geniuses themselves. (Not always, like I v…

Largely because it started as an April Fools joke (by Kenton Varda of Protobuf fame, IIRC, who had been working on protobufs under the mentoring of Dean & Ghemawat at the time), and the joke would fall flat if it were Dean/Ghemawat facts. It just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Then it was leaked to the press, and the press wants heroes, because that's who ordinary readers can identify with. There are plenty of publications (usually in scholar journals) where Dean & Ghemawat get equal billing. They aren't Wired, and they don't usually get to the top of Hacker News (or actually, sometimes they do).

Re: How Google’s Jeff Dean became the Chuck Norris of the Internet

#43
post #37

I never found out if Yegge was talking about Jeff Dean here, or maybe Urs Holze: At first it's entirely non-obvious who's responsible for Google's culture of engineering discipline: the design docs, audited code reviews, early design reviews, readability reviews, resisting introduction of new languages, unit testing and code coverage, profiling and performance testing, etc. You know. The whole gamut of processes and…

I don't know who Yegge meant, but my read on that passage (as a Googler) is that he was talking about Craig Silverstein. Several of those items are definitely attributable to Craig.

Re: How Google’s Jeff Dean became the Chuck Norris of the Internet

#44
post #37

I never found out if Yegge was talking about Jeff Dean here, or maybe Urs Holze: At first it's entirely non-obvious who's responsible for Google's culture of engineering discipline: the design docs, audited code reviews, early design reviews, readability reviews, resisting introduction of new languages, unit testing and code coverage, profiling and performance testing, etc. You know. The whole gamut of processes and…

I don't know who Yegge meant, but my read on that passage (as a Googler) is that he was talking about Craig Silverstein. Several of those items are definitely attributable to Craig.

Agreed. Craig never exerted much technical influence (beyond the early years, I assume), but was always a strong cultural force in the areas of engineering quality, code reviews, readability, consistency, etc.

Re: How Google’s Jeff Dean became the Chuck Norris of the Internet

#45
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The weakness of this contribution is often cited as the reason many types of software patents should be invalid. Putting a shiny wrapper on an old idea in an obvious but slightly different context is something upon which many software hackers would normally cast a jaundiced eye. My point was largely that e.g. MapReduce had literally been used in the HPC world for quite some time in countless variations. Something sim…

Can you give a citation for the MapReduce and Spanner predecessors? I've seen similar papers that predate MapReduce (I'm curious if you will find the ones I have). But I've also noticed that most people who think MapReduce is old hat have never used it and/or misunderstand what it actually is. And if it was already so well known, there wouldn't be hundreds of CS researchers continuing to publish both theoretical and…

As a general point, a lot of computer science is poorly documented or difficult to find in the literature but well-known among the practitioners that use it. A great example is the recent flurry of activity (including patent activity) around "hyperdimensional hashing" and similar concepts. The irony is that the concepts are so old that some of the original patents have expired but the work is sufficiently forgotten that academics are attempting to re-patent those ideas. I am familiar with it because those algorithms are de rigueur for some types of massively parallel systems (I've been designing parallel systems for ages). No one publishes papers on it though because it is not new to those people. A large part of it is that much of the original literature is lost in paper form and cannot be found electronically. I've been burned by this personally, having done work that I later discovered had been previously done in the 1980s by a respected academic but which is not cited in any modern literature; from the standpoint of modern literature, the work is completely forgotten. But it had been done and rare people exist that are familiar with it.

So more specifically (I got back from vacation a couple hours ago, forgive the terseness):

Spanner is an old, old idea in literature and a number of bespoke systems were built on the concept. Ancient transaction processing literature mentions it, I've worked with a few crusty mainframe environments that used variants of it. It was considered a stupid idea for decades because the hardware required for a reasonable implementation was outrageously expensive for most applications. Atomic clocks and satellite-delivered time codes don't cost what they used to. I used to have a transaction processing book from the 1980s that described a couple specific implementations that were quite close to Spanner (written by a couple guys with Indian surnames, wish I remember the book). It had been written off so long ago for inexpensive commodity systems that apparently it took Google to rediscover it but it never fell out of use.

Similarly, I think a lot of people in the HPC world were surprised to discover that MapReduce was patentable. Not every problem in HPC looks like computational fluid dynamics (CFD), which is often the stereotype. If you are actually an academic then you should know better than anyone that the number of cites is misleading. The MapReduce model (though not under that name) was a standard design pattern for some non-CFD problems in HPC in every respect going back to at least the 1990s. The specific novelty claimed by MapReduce has never been clear to me. A lot of the (terrible) compilers for obscure HPC platforms back in the day transformed the code into a canonical MapReduce model. Maybe I am missing what makes Google's version unique?

Re: How Google’s Jeff Dean became the Chuck Norris of the Internet

#46

Google (and by extension Jeff Dean) have made their greatest contribution in that they successfully popularized niche computer science with decent implementations. I think a point that is often lost is that Google invents very little computer science; they take obscure computer science that in most cases has already been implemented somewhere and do a very good, high visibility implementation of that computer science…

This is a wonderfully-executed middlebrow dismissal. I hope pg adds it to his detection corpus ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4714217 )

The commentary was terse (hiking in the mountains, limited IP access) but accurate. I have designed interesting algorithms and software on large-scale database and HPC systems for much of my adult life. As a consequence, I am much more familiar with these domains than most casual programmers or academics in these fields.

The important point was that ideas like MapReduce and Spanner are literally rehashes of very old ideas that never fell out of use in some domains. But they are so old that no one that uses those ideas would dream of publishing a paper on it because it has been in continuous use for ages. In most cases, a deep enough dive in the dead tree literature will often turn up examples of these in real implementations. I learned most of it from graybeards working on cool stuff when I was young, not from the literature.

I am not exactly young but both MapReduce and Spanner predate my time in computer science. BigTable was actually a novel composition of existing but obscure bits of computer science so I give Google full credit for that.

Google has shown an exceptional ability to exploit ignored or forgotten computer science. However, to the extent they exploit it there is often little invention beyond those that they borrow the ideas from. In that respect, I think the credit is somewhat misplaced with respect to invention.

Re: How Google’s Jeff Dean became the Chuck Norris of the Internet

#47
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What has he done that you don't like? I'm not going to read through a dozen or so articles and try to guess which one you have a problem with. Going from the titles I see a lot of stuff about cancer charities, and a few articles about religion in public schools. If its the latter, he lost that battle, just like all the other Christians. I'm just going off of his personality. He makes a lot of USO appearances, and my…

He promotes hatred of and inequality for homosexuals, for a start. http://www.williamkwolfrum.com/2009/07/12/behind-chuck-norri... http://www.queerty.com/chuck-norris-wants-to-keep-the-boy-sc... We've reached a point in history where homophobia is at roughly the same point as racism was in the 50s and 60s. Plenty of people still espouse those hateful views...but, it's long past time for society at large to stop accep…

Thanks for the links. Specific complaints are much easier to digest than trying to read his entire website.

I agree that homophobia is rapidly reaching the same status as racism. It's a shame that Chuck doesn't.

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