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English has been my pain for 15 years

antirez.com

101–110 of 308 posts

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#101
The number one rule I have taught to people who speak English as a second language is to always always always learn polysyllabic words, especially those with 3+ syllables, to learn them back to front and never from front to back, which is the natural way to approach learning long words.

Instead of learning a word like onomatopeia like this:

    on...
    ono...
    onomat...
    onomato...
    onomatopei...
    onomatopeia
Try saying it out loud this way instead:

    ...a
    ...peia
    ...topeia
    ...matopeia
    ...nomatopeia
    onomatopeia
This will almost always result in learning to pronounce the word much better. I say almost because there probably are words out there that violate this rule, but I haven't come across any of them yet. The reason this approach works is because the first syllable of almost all polysyllabic words in English is pronounced in a more drawn out fashion than the latter syllables. By learning from back to front, you force yourself to learn to draw out the first syllable and shorten up the last syllable(s).

I have found that this rule is also applicable to almost all Romance languages for English speakers learning, French, Spanish, Portuguese, etc.

If you are a speaker of a second language, I strongly urge you to try this out yourself and get feedback from a native speaker on your pronunciation.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#103
I see that the submitted article, and many of the interesting comments in this busy thread, relate to the issue of the bizarre spelling patterns of English. As a native speaker of General American English (the dialect of English I recommend to foreign learners of English ;) ), I have two perspectives on this.

1) As a parent of English-speaking children, I thought it was VITAL that they learn well the main consistent sound-symbol correspondence rules of English spelling. (This is called "phonics" in the context of teaching reading to native speakers of English.) My favorite book recommendation for this is Let's Read: A Linguistic Approach, by linguist Leonard Bloomfield and lexicographer Clarence Barnhart. All four of my children learned to read well with this book. The book is now in a second edition

http://www.amazon.com/Lets-Read-A-Linguistic-Approach/dp/081...

prepared by a second generation of the Barnhart family. Learning to read with an approach like this is dialect-friendly (the book is specifically organized to take into account dialect differences, at least within American English) and systematic for understanding what is consistent in English spelling and what is not.

2) As for spelling reform in English, I think it was HN user gnosis who once shared a very interesting link

http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ortho.html

about English spelling reform by a commentator who knows linguistics well. English spelling reform is often desired by native speakers of the language, but it is a tough problem. See what the link has to say about various proposals for spelling reform.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#104
Its worth noting though that the grammar is a piece of piss. It works well as an international language because its easy to learn yet hard to master.

(for the record, I'm trying to learn Icelandic and that language has crazy rules)

If anything we just need to be cautious of judging people who don't have native-level English.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#105
post #13

I think this is especially true for native speakers of languages derived from latin. Why ? Because in classical latin to pronounce a word you just pronounce every letter in the standard way. So you tend to associate the written word strongly with the way it is spoken. However in the real world languages are spoken first, and the way words are written only follows later (or does not always, which can cause a whole lot…

To be honest, as a native French speaker I find it sometimes very hard to understand the French spoken by people from African countries. The same is true for deep countryside French accents, who tend to pronunciation words with different phonemes. (Such as trilled R's)

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#106
I don't know about US English but I know how to speak "TV English" perfectly however when I came to the UK I had a hard time adjusting to the different accents around London for a couple of months.

Scottish, Irish or just about every accent out there sound like weird sounds the first time you hear them and you actually have to focus hard to figure out what the fk that person just said.

Written English may be the same everywhere but spoken English varies greatly from region to region.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#107
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not being willing to learn an essential skill.

So a 12 year old in Brazil not only has to learn how to install an OS, and then how to install Python, and then how to program with Python, but also has to do all of that in a different language? Pretty easy to call it an essential skill when English is your first language. How about you try to pick up some new programming language using only Japanese documentation?

The parent comment wasn't prescriptive, it was descriptive. You can argue all you'd like that it isn't fair or optimal or good, but you're hard pressed to argue that it isn't true.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#108
Over the past year I have improved my spoken English immensely, here's how:

- I took about 30 lessons of one-on-one tutoring through Skype. It really helps to have someone who is paid to hear your bad English, and to have the patience to point to you the mistakes that you are making. This costs about 20€ per hour, but it is worth it.

- Read out loud. There was a period of about a month where I did this at least one hour per day. I read books, articles, even RFCs. It does wonders.

- Made a good use of the "pronounce feature" that most dictionaries have nowadays.

- Saw youtube videos on pronunciation and common mistakes.

I also wrote a lot, about 2000 words per day (I wrote a AutoHotKey script to count number of times I hit space on any given day). Perhaps 2000 words is too much, and it tends to favor verbosity over succinctness. But you will get a LOT of practice.

It also helps to read/hear good writers/speakers. I don't like movies/tv so much, as they have a low speech to time ratio.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#109
"Introvert or extrovert": this is a huge deal when learning and living among foreign speakers. I went through this when I moved to Turkey and I called it an "Identity Crisis", the way other people perceive you is totally different than what you are used to.

Re: English has been my pain for 15 years

#110
post #26
post #13

I think this is especially true for native speakers of languages derived from latin. Why ? Because in classical latin to pronounce a word you just pronounce every letter in the standard way. So you tend to associate the written word strongly with the way it is spoken. However in the real world languages are spoken first, and the way words are written only follows later (or does not always, which can cause a whole lot…

> but a non-native speaker who has learned French as spoken in Paris will more than likely not understand a native French speaker from Québec or Côte d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast). So I don't think this problem is specific to English. That's true but French is kind on an exception among latin languages, it is a phonetically complex language compared to Italian or Spanish.

Yeah. Spanish does have regional phonetic differences, but they don't tend to be hard to understand. Vocabulary is much more likely to cause misunderstanding.
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