Why a medieval peasant got more vacation time than you • Hacker News Board

Re: Why a medieval peasant got more vacation time than you

#91

Post by hfsktr » Mon, Sep 02, 2013, 5:00 AM UTC

foobarian wrote: post #46

btilly wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but if you think that we have equivalent fear of disease then and now, you don't know what life was like then. How many people did you personally know who died of disease as a kid? I knew one. (Cancer.) But this was a period where people would have 8 kids in the hope that 2-3 of them would survive to adulthood. And disease was the big killer.

Don't forget about a significant chance of dying or losing limb from any simple cut.

What I find amazing is how recently things like germs[1] were given real attention. I'd heard about Ignaz Semmelweis from a book I read and to think less than 200 years ago you would go to a hospital and they didn't bother to wash their hands between patients? Now maybe it was just the hospital in Vienna, but I imagine many were like that.

Just the things that are taken for granted as common sense now before they were.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease

Re: Why a medieval peasant got more vacation time than you

#92

Post by andyidsinga » Mon, Sep 02, 2013, 5:15 AM UTC

that article suffers from the same fallacy as the ol 'back on your heads' joke: -- a guy dies and goes to hell. upon arrival, the devil allows him to pick one of three rooms where he will then spend eternity.

in room one, people are being devoured by horrible beasts. in room two, people are being burned alive ( thats harsh). in room three, everyone is up to their waist in the smelliest, most putrid, disgusting shit he ever encountered -- but they're chit-chatting away, drinking coffee and having donuts. after a brief reflection, the guy chooses the room with waist deep shit, coffee and donuts.

a few minutes late the devil comes back and yells "alright scumbags, everyone back on your heads". --

...in medieval times you got one of the three rooms with the occasional coffee and donut break.

nowadays, in our briefer vacations we can be ON A BOAT mf'er - don't you ever forget! :):):)

Re: Why a medieval peasant got more vacation time than you

#93

Post by btilly » Mon, Sep 02, 2013, 5:18 AM UTC

hfsktr wrote: post #91

foobarian wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget about a significant chance of dying or losing limb from any simple cut.

What I find amazing is how recently things like germs[1] were given real attention. I'd heard about Ignaz Semmelweis from a book I read and to think less than 200 years ago you would go to a hospital and they didn't bother to wash their hands between patients? Now maybe it was just the hospital in Vienna, but I imagine many were like that. Just the things that are taken for granted as common sense now before they wer…

It is worse than that. Ignaz Semmelweis did not come to broader attention. It was not until Joseph Lister (the Lister in "Listerine") independently discovered this and popularized it that the English speaking world became aware of how they were killing people.

I have encountered mention of memoirs from US surgeons who were most distressed to have learned, shortly after the Civil War, how their failure to take simple sanitation measures was responsible for the death of many of their patients through gangrene.

Within living memory we had a similar shock from antibiotics. I remember an older professor telling me about a doctor he knew who had been unable to save his brother, but would have been able to do so a few years later.

I am sure there are still things out there like this. Heck, I lost my nephew because my sister followed her doctor's instructions to have him sleep on his stomach...less than 6 months before the American Academy of Pediatrics switched the recommendation to putting babies on their backs to reduce the odds of SIDS. If you've taken a parenting course in the last 20 years, sleeping babies on their back probably just seems like common sense to you.

Re: Why a medieval peasant got more vacation time than you

#94

Post by warcher » Mon, Sep 02, 2013, 5:58 AM UTC

lhl wrote: post #62

dunmalg wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>One Bushman, when asked why he hadn't emulated neighboring tribes by adopting agriculture, replied, "Why should we, when there are so many mongongo nuts in the world?" This sentence illustrates one of my main gripes with JD's "sunshine and happiness" view of hunter-gatherer societies. Hunter-gatherer lifestyle is fantastic for that small fraction of folks who live where there are plenty of mongongo nuts (so to speak…

Well, the whole point is that the populations for successful hunter gatherer tribes would be stable. Barring drastic ecological changes and (more commonly) attacks/displacement from technologically superior outsiders, aboriginal tribes have continued living as they have for centuries (even millennia). Of course that type of society wouldn't be able to support a population of 7B people, although based on the 2.4B in p…

Don't discount the state of constant warfare most aboriginal societies live in. If you have a neighbor, he wants your mongongo nuts.

Re: Why a medieval peasant got more vacation time than you

#95

Post by D9u » Mon, Sep 02, 2013, 6:13 AM UTC

davidw wrote: post #37

D9u wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that our elected representatives have voted themselves so many perks, as well as raises, highlights the double standard which has become prevalent in the USA. Exempt from the Obama care fiasco, retirement eligibility after a ridiculously short period of employment, an enviably short work "year." It makes me wonder why I didn't go into politics...

> It makes me wonder why I didn't go into politics... There's nothing stopping you but yourself, you know. It's not like West Point or something where you have to start right out of high school.

I don't have the resources to cease working in order to campaign for office, and no big backers are supporting my positions, so although it may be only me holding myself back in the eyes of some, there are extenuating circumstances which work to keep me in my place.

Re: Why a medieval peasant got more vacation time than you

#96

Post by dredmorbius » Mon, Sep 02, 2013, 7:05 AM UTC

hfsktr wrote: post #91

foobarian wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget about a significant chance of dying or losing limb from any simple cut.

What I find amazing is how recently things like germs[1] were given real attention. I'd heard about Ignaz Semmelweis from a book I read and to think less than 200 years ago you would go to a hospital and they didn't bother to wash their hands between patients? Now maybe it was just the hospital in Vienna, but I imagine many were like that. Just the things that are taken for granted as common sense now before they wer…

The amount of progress in knowledge and technology in the past 200-250 years or so (pretty much all of the Industrial Revolution) really is staggering. Take someone from 1750, drop him in the world of 1500, and things would have been pretty familiar. Move 250 years in the other direction and he'd be hard-pressed to make heads or tails of anything (assuming you're taking someone from a part of the developed world -- for the developing world, the changes would be less pronounced, but still likely significant).

Re: Why a medieval peasant got more vacation time than you

#97

Post by Fingel » Mon, Sep 02, 2013, 7:08 AM UTC

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #84

Fingel wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bike bum here writing from Whister, B.C. Work 20ish hours a week for Silicon Valley startups remotely and still manage to actually save money simply by not living in the Bay Area. I have a ridiculous amount of leisure time and relocate whenever I feel like it. I know this isn't possible for most people, but I wonder why more of my peers (and those on HN) don't choose a similar lifestyle.

Wow, fellow bike bum in Whistler. Small world.

Isn't it? I came up with a buddy from SF just to ride for a week... and he ended up driving home alone :( If you see someone coding in the public library, it's probably me.

Re: Why a medieval peasant got more vacation time than you

#98

Post by lhl » Mon, Sep 02, 2013, 7:45 AM UTC

warcher wrote: post #94

lhl wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the whole point is that the populations for successful hunter gatherer tribes would be stable. Barring drastic ecological changes and (more commonly) attacks/displacement from technologically superior outsiders, aboriginal tribes have continued living as they have for centuries (even millennia). Of course that type of society wouldn't be able to support a population of 7B people, although based on the 2.4B in p…

Don't discount the state of constant warfare most aboriginal societies live in. If you have a neighbor, he wants your mongongo nuts.

Hmm, while this the assumption (in some pretty flawed) early anthropology, I think the modern consensus is that hunter gatherer societies were relatively peaceful, both amongst themselves[1] and between each other[2].

Of course, successful/stable hunter-gatherer societies are pretty geographically isolated, since encounters by tribes w/ more "advanced" (post-agrarian, colonial, modern) societies usually has meant obliteration.

[1] http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201105/how... [2] http://www.sott.net/article/264152-Warfare-was-uncommon-amon...

Re: Why a medieval peasant got more vacation time than you

#99

Post by harimau » Mon, Sep 02, 2013, 7:57 AM UTC

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #23

netcan wrote: post #11

This comparison is probably nonsensical. Still, I think the part of the zeitgeist it's coming from is interesting. No matter how rich we get as a society, very little of that wealth seems to be expressed as more leisure time. This is true comparing different decades (We got richer, still work lots) and its true comparing professions/socio economic classes (highly paid engineers & lawyers work just as much as call cen…

It is a personal decision though, right? Some choose more leisure and others don't. Go talk to some ski "bums" or surf "bums" to see what I mean

Ski bum and surfer bum is a decision. Living on the margins of what used to be a middle class isn't. For the vast majority of people in the US, they're working longer hours for less pay, and, as the article says, less vacation.

The idea here at HN is that we can create and do things so that we aren't the paper-pushers and moist robots that make up the 'normal' workforce. In past economic times, their hope for those of us that could make life more productive for the gen. pop. was that we were able to make life 'better' for the majority and able to have much more quality of life than quantity. Even if you are 'allowed' your average 8-10 days vacation how disconnected are you really? A lot of people I know are required to have their phone on or be ready to respond to an email request if it comes in.

A real vacation like in Europe (where many countries equal or better US productivity) might be good for the US economy in general. Talk to anyone that is a creative, that ruminates on new things, and you'll find that most ideas come at the least time of thinking (the shower, a random walk, etc). When we're relaxed and living and letting our conscious slide a bit that sometimes we're at our best in coming up with the greatest thoughts.

Re: Why a medieval peasant got more vacation time than you

#100

Post by ap22213 » Mon, Sep 02, 2013, 8:19 AM UTC

lhl wrote: post #98

warcher wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't discount the state of constant warfare most aboriginal societies live in. If you have a neighbor, he wants your mongongo nuts.

Hmm, while this the assumption (in some pretty flawed) early anthropology, I think the modern consensus is that hunter gatherer societies were relatively peaceful, both amongst themselves[1] and between each other[2]. Of course, successful/stable hunter-gatherer societies are pretty geographically isolated, since encounters by tribes w/ more "advanced" (post-agrarian, colonial, modern) societies usually has meant obl…

Recently I read Pinker's "Better Angels" [1]. Using archeological records, he argues that dying from a violent death was extremely likely in hunter gatherer societies.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature