The Temple Operating System • Hacker News Board

Re: The Temple Operating System

#111

Post by darklajid » Sun, Sep 01, 2013, 1:25 AM UTC

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #107

darklajid wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, to a point. No one should attack the man. But that project shouldn't be here either. The author is banned from discussing his work. He is considered 'unwanted' already, in a way (and without us, the mere mortals that take part in the discussions here, having a say). So while you're certainly right in some way (personal attacks are uncalled for), refusing to give him a platform to present his propaganda is st…

No. He is not considered unwanted. He's hellbanned because that is the only reasonable course of action for this case. He can post his comments and people can see it if they choose to. He's respected as a human being and fellow programmer suffering from a terrible disease. And I assure you this post would already be dead or buried if the mods didn't explicitly approve of its presence.

Hellban: "We don't want your stuff here and hope it takes you ages to figure out that we don't read it, before you create another account to write the same things"

"I assure you this post would be dead or buried if the mods didn't explicitly approve"? Really? You claim to know that? I call BS. You defend both project (meh!) and author (understandable, in parts) throughout this thread.

Now you're claiming that this post is 'signed off' somehow? With that brand-spanking-new account? Are you hiding some information? Do you sit in PG's office? Are you 'sillysaurus', the old/respectable account? And if that's the case, what leads you to this crusade with a '2' suffix?

Re: The Temple Operating System

#112

Post by sillysaurus2 » Sun, Sep 01, 2013, 1:27 AM UTC

tazjin wrote: post #108

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make someone schizophrenic. I have no idea what you're talking about. Schizophrenia is a physical illness. Your brain physically deteriorates. You can't make anyone schizophrenic any more than you can make them lose an arm. In fact, making them lose an arm would be much easier than making them schizophrenic.

No, there is a large amount of factors that have been linked to being able to cause schizophrenia. There is no final answer to the debate at the moment. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_schizophrenia

Interesting... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_schizophrenia#Urbanic...

"A particularly stable and replicable finding has been the association between living in an urban environment and the development of schizophrenia, even after factors such as drug use, ethnic group and size of social group have been controlled for.[142] A recent study of 4.4 million men and women in Sweden found a 68%–77% increased risk of diagnosed psychosis for people living in the most urbanized environments, a significant proportion of which is likely to be described as schizophrenia.

The effect does not appear to be due to a higher incidence of obstetric complications in urban environments.[144] The risk increases with the number of years and degree of urban living in childhood and adolescence, suggesting that constant, cumulative, or repeated exposures during upbringing occurring more frequently in urbanized areas are responsible for the association.

Various possible explanations for the effect have been judged unlikely based on the nature of the findings, including infectious causes or a generic stress effect. It is thought to interact with genetic dispositions and, since there appears to be nonrandom variation even across different neighborhoods, and an independent association with social isolation, it has been proposed that the degree of "social capital" (e.g. degree of mutual trust, bonding and safety in neighborhoods) can exert a developmental impact on children growing up in these environments."

So it does seem that it's inflictable, though we don't quite know by what. I can see that brainwashing may trigger it if someone was genetically predisposed to it. One theory may be that living in an urban environment is more of a trigger for those who are genetically predisposed to it. It seems like genetics is a requirement, though, suggesting it's not inflictable at will.

Re: The Temple Operating System

#113

Post by darklajid » Sun, Sep 01, 2013, 1:32 AM UTC

jimminy wrote: post #109

darklajid wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, to a point. No one should attack the man. But that project shouldn't be here either. The author is banned from discussing his work. He is considered 'unwanted' already, in a way (and without us, the mere mortals that take part in the discussions here, having a say). So while you're certainly right in some way (personal attacks are uncalled for), refusing to give him a platform to present his propaganda is st…

I've looked at the page, I do find the content offensive. The project itself (stripped of the bullshit) is somewhat interesting. Whether the project is worth any mention or platform is to the individual. I personally wouldn't have posted it for the fact that it is offensive. My issue is that it wasn't him that posted this. The reason he's 'unwanted' is so he doesn't receive the platform. [ETA: sillysaurus says it muc…

We're not too far apart.

He didn't post it. No need to attack the person behind the project.

But the project (you saw the page) offers quite some opportunities for criticism already. I agree that we shouldn't bash the guy for his .. background. I still think that the "Oh, but this is so amazing" and even more, "Don't criticize the guy, he has a medical condition you insensitive clod" is useless, crap and no better than the "That guy is a nutjob" insults.

Judging the project on its own, looking at nothing but the link, I'd say that this in inappropriate. That's my position, nothing else - and I don't mean that guy any harm.

Re: The Temple Operating System

#114

Post by bobsgame » Sun, Sep 01, 2013, 1:33 AM UTC

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #112

tazjin wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there is a large amount of factors that have been linked to being able to cause schizophrenia. There is no final answer to the debate at the moment. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_schizophrenia

Interesting... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_schizophrenia#Urbanic... "A particularly stable and replicable finding has been the association between living in an urban environment and the development of schizophrenia, even after factors such as drug use, ethnic group and size of social group have been controlled for.[142] A recent study of 4.4 million men and women in Sweden found a 68%–77% increased risk of…

Yeah. We do sort of know why, it's just not exactly something that is easily proven or explicitly demonstrable through scientific method.

However, anyone who has gone through a bad breakup and gone a bit wacky has felt what emotional stress can do to the mind, you see it all the time seeing couples arguing and yelling psychotic things into the phone and slamming it, etc. It jams up the conscious process! Too much of this does cause schizophrenic states, and left unresolved can cause significant damage.

Re: The Temple Operating System

#115

Post by wbhart » Sun, Sep 01, 2013, 1:33 AM UTC

jessedhillon wrote: post #91

Udo wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And on top of that, he's still a racist (and a homophobe if memory serves). Some of his rants are also more than a bit violent and scary, I wouldn't want to be near him when he isn't heavily medicated. The tragedy with illnesses like this is that it becomes almost impossible to draw a line between the condition and the person's personality. I have showdead on all the time and I see him posting his garbage every day.…

I'm not sure you can call him a racist. He has an unintrospectable (by us at least) mental state, and the things he says can't be taken as representations of his opinions. He literally can't either control what he's saying, or perceive reality clear enough to get a usable picture of it. To be racist, I think it should be clear that the person is making value judgments about others based solely or primarily on the tar…

I agree that he's quite probably not racist. He appears to have a fascination with computerised randomisation as a means of divining words from God. This would explain some of his (otherwise unintrospectable) comments. And it also leads me to believe that his frequent mention of the CIA and the n-word has some special, possibly even internally consistent, meaning to him, of which we are simply unaware. I am at least able to pick up on some of the religious allusions he makes elsewhere. That doesn't make him sane. But it might perhaps excuse what would otherwise be unacceptable.

Re: The Temple Operating System

#116

Post by sillysaurus2 » Sun, Sep 01, 2013, 1:34 AM UTC

darklajid wrote: post #111

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. He is not considered unwanted. He's hellbanned because that is the only reasonable course of action for this case. He can post his comments and people can see it if they choose to. He's respected as a human being and fellow programmer suffering from a terrible disease. And I assure you this post would already be dead or buried if the mods didn't explicitly approve of its presence.

Hellban: "We don't want your stuff here and hope it takes you ages to figure out that we don't read it, before you create another account to write the same things" "I assure you this post would be dead or buried if the mods didn't explicitly approve"? Really? You claim to know that? I call BS. You defend both project (meh!) and author (understandable, in parts) throughout this thread. Now you're claiming that this po…

"I assure you this post would be dead or buried if the mods didn't explicitly approve"? Really? You claim to know that? I call BS.

You don't need to take my word for it. The thread was sitting at #3 at 01:05 UTC. It was then manually adjusted by a moderator, or automatically adjusted due to flagging, or automatically adjusted due to the flamewar detector, to #26 at 01:10 UTC. http://hnrankings.info/6308017/ Also, mods are typically quick to bury stuff that they feel wouldn't be good for HN, especially during primetime hours. This post was #1-#3 for several hours, so this leads me to suspect this thread was either automatically adjusted by the flamewar detector or penalized due to flagging, and that a moderator had already seen this and decided not buried it. Also, for the stuff they truly do not want on HN, they bury the story by adjusting its gravity to be infinite, e.g. it's not merely moved to page 2 or page 3 but to >page 10. And this story wasn't buried.

Yes, I was sillysaurus. I was hellbanned for posting controversial comments and then deleting them. Now I make controversial comments and don't delete them.

Re: The Temple Operating System

#117

Post by Udo » Sun, Sep 01, 2013, 1:41 AM UTC

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #93

Udo wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Willful misunderstanding is of course always an option, I guess.

I was consciously trying not to misunderstand you. I can't parse what you said in any way except "this guy is a nutcase and should be denied praise since he's ill." I mean, how would you want to be treated if your genes were a little less signal and a little more noise?

Your two posts where you are re-stating my opinion in your own words should qualify as a strawman-like attack, so willful misunderstanding is a fair charge.

This kind of illness bleeds into a person's personality. Mental illness is a complex spectrum, not a boolean value. The more a person's capacity for reasoning about the world is compromised, the less relevant it becomes what that person wants. Clearly, if losethos would get what he wants, we'd all die a horrible death. Let that sink in for a second. So to answer your point: if I was a thoroughly crazy person, what I want would be irrelevant.

Of course, all of these points and counterpoints between us are somewhat dancing around the actual issue. So I'll come out and say it: I don't like that dude. For me personally his views outweigh the programming things he does. Your opinion differs. You write off what you don't like as noise, and cherry-pick the things you like for praise. Both viewpoints have certain merits.

However, when you summarize my point of view as

> You're disappointed that a cool project is #1 on hacker news?

you crossed the line into outright misrepresentation by using a polemic sound bite designed to distort the meaning behind the original argument. Yes, I personally am disappointed this is #1 on HN. Yes, it's a cool project. However, it should also be exceedingly obvious that I'm not disappointed because a cool project is featured prominently. And you did the same thing again with

> "this guy is a nutcase and should be denied praise since he's ill."

Yes, that guy is a "nutcase". And yes, he should be denied praise. But once again you imply a causal link between those statements where you know is none: I don't want to deny praise because he's ill. I want to deny praise because he's an asshole.

You did this maneuver two times. There is little reason to doubt you're trying to ridicule my argument by faultily restating it.

But let's put your rhetorics aside. This all is based on my personal opinion about losethos. You have a different one, and at the time of writing this, it is shared by at least 139 people. Be happy about that. It means you're probably right.

Re: The Temple Operating System

#118

Post by wbhart » Sun, Sep 01, 2013, 1:48 AM UTC

lutusp wrote: post #99

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, mental illness can sometimes be a conscious choice as well. We can talk ourselves into a very unhealthy mental state -- or out of one. Lest anyone believe this, let me emphasize that this project's author is suffering from schizophrenia, and schizophrenia is a physical disease. Your brain physically deteriorates.

> Lest anyone believe this, let me emphasize that this project's author is suffering from schizophrenia That doesn't contradict the idea that many mental illnesses have no physical or biological connection, indeed many are inventions of psychologists for their own personal benefit, and were created by votes, not research. > and schizophrenia is a physical disease. Your brain physically deteriorates. Very true, which…

According to wikipedia, it is associated with (doesn't imply causation) physical changes to the brain in 40-50% of cases. I'm not any kind of expert, just reading what I see there, but apart from small decreases in brain volume (not known whether this is preexistent or not), I don't see any mention of the brain "deteriorating". Indeed, it seems that around a quarter of sufferers recover completely, others may have long periods between relapse. It is also possible to suffer schizophrenia with a high intelligence quotient.

Re: The Temple Operating System

#119

Post by sillysaurus2 » Sun, Sep 01, 2013, 1:58 AM UTC

Udo wrote: post #117

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was consciously trying not to misunderstand you. I can't parse what you said in any way except "this guy is a nutcase and should be denied praise since he's ill." I mean, how would you want to be treated if your genes were a little less signal and a little more noise?

Your two posts where you are re-stating my opinion in your own words should qualify as a strawman-like attack, so willful misunderstanding is a fair charge. This kind of illness bleeds into a person's personality. Mental illness is a complex spectrum, not a boolean value. The more a person's capacity for reasoning about the world is compromised, the less relevant it becomes what that person wants. Clearly, if losetho…

My intent wasn't to misrepresent you. It was to clarify you. I have no interest in making people look bad. I'm interested in the truth. Thank you for clarifying that, and I'm sorry if I was being uncharitable.

Re: The Temple Operating System

#120

Post by Udo » Sun, Sep 01, 2013, 2:08 AM UTC

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #119

Udo wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your two posts where you are re-stating my opinion in your own words should qualify as a strawman-like attack, so willful misunderstanding is a fair charge. This kind of illness bleeds into a person's personality. Mental illness is a complex spectrum, not a boolean value. The more a person's capacity for reasoning about the world is compromised, the less relevant it becomes what that person wants. Clearly, if losetho…

My intent wasn't to misrepresent you. It was to clarify you. I have no interest in making people look bad. I'm interested in the truth. Thank you for clarifying that, and I'm sorry if I was being uncharitable.

I'm sorry if I saw intent where there maybe was none. But I hope you see how it would look that way to someone when you paint a picture like that. Also, reading intent in forum posts is hard, especially if you don't know the person. So let me restate that those two conclusions you drew about my motivations are false, but the end result is probably pretty close anyway.