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How Poverty Taxes the Brain

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Re: How Poverty Taxes the Brain

#91

Post by nickthemagicman »

msandford wrote: post #77
nickthemagicman wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your logic is flawed in that people in poverty everything is a priority. When you live paycheck to paycheck you don't make 'decisions'. You just function and watch TV.

I don't think you can make that argument reasonably. Everything is a priority for everyone on the planet, always. Demand is infinite and supply is finite. The world's been like that for as long as people have been around. Monkeys exhibit behaviors that you could argue have to do with some kind of understanding of "fairness" http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57497280/video-monkey-an... If you have free time to watch…

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just extremely naive and idealistic.

You're still operating under the assumption that you have choices when you're in poverty.

Imagine working two jobs 80 hours a week and pulling in $2000 at minimum wage.

700-rent 200-car note 80-insurance 500-food 200- utilities 200-gas

Where are you going to make 'choices' to get ahead assuming all of your time and money are gone?

This is the cycle of poverty that unskilled people live under if you weren't born into a middle class family that can help you get ahead or if you don't get lucky.

So barring 'lucky opportunities' impossible is a pretty accurate way to describe poverty in America.

Re: How Poverty Taxes the Brain

#92

Post by [deleted] »

msandford wrote: post #77
nickthemagicman wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your logic is flawed in that people in poverty everything is a priority. When you live paycheck to paycheck you don't make 'decisions'. You just function and watch TV.

I don't think you can make that argument reasonably. Everything is a priority for everyone on the planet, always. Demand is infinite and supply is finite. The world's been like that for as long as people have been around. Monkeys exhibit behaviors that you could argue have to do with some kind of understanding of "fairness" http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57497280/video-monkey-an... If you have free time to watch…

[deleted]

Re: How Poverty Taxes the Brain

#93

Post by mikeash »

Carltonian wrote: post #51

I'm witnessing this tax first hand right, but the tax is in a more literal sense. Some background: Right now my commute is about 35 minutes through Southern California (I live in Riverside and drive south to the Inland Empire). On Tuesday, my car was totaled. I was in the middle lane on a 3 lane highway when I saw someone coming up behind me a couple of miles before my exit, so I got over to the slow lane. Right as t…

Why not rent a car on your own dime? A low-end one can be cheap, on the order of $20-25/day, which is pretty reasonable to save you a lot of time on the bus until you find a new car. Obviously not an option for poorer people, which is your whole point, but it could be a good option for you.

Re: How Poverty Taxes the Brain

#94

Post by msandford »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #91
msandford wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can make that argument reasonably. Everything is a priority for everyone on the planet, always. Demand is infinite and supply is finite. The world's been like that for as long as people have been around. Monkeys exhibit behaviors that you could argue have to do with some kind of understanding of "fairness" http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57497280/video-monkey-an... If you have free time to watch…

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just extremely naive and idealistic. You're still operating under the assumption that you have choices when you're in poverty. Imagine working two jobs 80 hours a week and pulling in $2000 at minimum wage. 700-rent 200-car note 80-insurance 500-food 200- utilities 200-gas Where are you going to make 'choices' to get ahead assuming all of your time and money are gone? This is the cyc…

I think the reason we don't see eye-to-eye on this is this line right here:

> 700-rent 200-car note 80-insurance 500-food 200- utilities 200-gas

When I look at that I still see room to squeeze it cheaper. Rent could go down with a roommate (or several). A $200 car note is pretty substantial. $500 for food is also a lot more than needs to be spent.

I think that when you look at that, it's a bare-minimum kind of thing and it couldn't possibly get any cheaper.

What it boils down to is the will to make the sacrifices necessary to stop having to make all these short-term tactical decisions and be able to start taking a longer view.

Here's a lady who talks about having a $30/week food budget for her AND her husband.

http://moneysavingmom.com/2012/04/is-it-possible-to-survive-...

I would also suggest that you don't attack me personally for my views and instead argue why they're wrong. When I disagreed with you I said "I don't think you can make that argument reasonably." When you disagreed with me you said "I'm not sure if you're trolling or just extremely naive and idealistic." You can do better.

Re: How Poverty Taxes the Brain

#95

Post by dredmorbius »

angersock wrote: post #56
scott_s wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I observe this at the grocery store. The ones I visit have people from a wide range of economic status. When I go in, I grab what I need and don't think about price - it's almost always just the staples like bread, milk, fruit and eggs, and I know with certainty that I can afford it. And that I don't think about price is literally true until I'm told how much it costs, then I pay it, then I promptly stop thinking abo…

One of the most interesting domestic exercises is to think about how much different items cost in terms of other items. A steak dinner (say, $50) is worth just a bit more than 3 double-meat Chipotle burritos with drink and chips and guac (say, $14). Each of those burrito meals is worth a bit more than 4 dozen eggs (say, fancy-pants eggs at $3/dz.) Each of those dozen eggs is worth 20 packs of shitty ramen ($.15/pack)…

Each of those dozen eggs is worth 20 packs of shitty ramen

Careful: at a point, qualitative aspects matter. Your eggs are proteins and fats (both of which are essential to survival -- your body cannot manufacture certain proteins and EFAs). Ramen is virtually 100% carbohydrate. While it's going to provide you with energy, it's not going to sustain other essential bodily functions.

And I really have a hard time parsing tobacco consumption as fiscally responsible under any terms.

Re: How Poverty Taxes the Brain

#96

Post by sillysaurus2 »

pfisch wrote: post #88
angersock wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the most interesting domestic exercises is to think about how much different items cost in terms of other items. A steak dinner (say, $50) is worth just a bit more than 3 double-meat Chipotle burritos with drink and chips and guac (say, $14). Each of those burrito meals is worth a bit more than 4 dozen eggs (say, fancy-pants eggs at $3/dz.) Each of those dozen eggs is worth 20 packs of shitty ramen ($.15/pack)…

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say smoking tobacco is most certainly not a good investment.

We all have our addictions. Being automatically prejudiced against one that happens to shorten your life isn't as useful as realizing you may be addicted to something far worse, e.g. spending most of your time thinking about dating or worrying how to shape yourself to fit the die that some institution has cast for your life, like college or work.

Re: How Poverty Taxes the Brain

#97

Post by w_t_payne »

ritchiea wrote: post #14

I can speak to this. For a while in 2010 I was completely broke after leaving my first job out of college, which I hated, and having some other employment opportunities fall through. Having that little money changes your decision making process about absolutely everything. Obviously every financial decision is effected, even the tiniest purchases weigh into bigger questions like "will I have enough money in my bank a…

It is all that and more; it is not just the extra mental effort, it is also the stress that messes with your ability to reason; that makes rationality diminish, and drives emotional instability and crisis creating behaviors.

Re: How Poverty Taxes the Brain

#98

Post by mkr-hn »

michaelfdeberry wrote: post #61
venomsnake wrote: post #42

Being poor is a full time job. I have fasted for weeks without problems and yet on the one occasion in the last 20 years where I was unable to buy food for three days the hunger was severe and overwhelming - the experiences had nothing in common. The cognitive load I have seen on friends struggling with poverty is immense - they are permanently mentally exhausted of all the hard decisions and complicated math needed…

> Here is an idea for a product - easy to use program that balances the budget as good as possible while taking into account the unique challenges that struggling people are faced with. It's a good idea, but saving money often has an up front cost and I think an app to help the poor would fall into that category. The people that would end up benefiting from such an app would be people that could afford to purchase a…

I think venomsnake's choice to use "program" instead of "app" was intentional. Most people have access to a computer at the library or even an aging Dell/Compaq that they bought when times were better. This hypothetical program sounds like something that could run inexpensively on AWS and save to Dropbox (like fargo.io).

Re: How Poverty Taxes the Brain

#99

Post by Florin_Andrei »

Swizec wrote: post #62
scott_s wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I observe this at the grocery store. The ones I visit have people from a wide range of economic status. When I go in, I grab what I need and don't think about price - it's almost always just the staples like bread, milk, fruit and eggs, and I know with certainty that I can afford it. And that I don't think about price is literally true until I'm told how much it costs, then I pay it, then I promptly stop thinking abo…

For an even more interesting observation: I have grown up not quite in poverty, but still in a single parent home with mum having to work multiple jobs at times to support me and my sister. Thinking about money has rubbed off on me. Nowadays I personally have zero money problems on account of my freelancing business doing great. But going to the grocery store habits learned over half of my life still kick in. Do I bu…

A moderate amount of moderation is actually good to keep around. But I agree it can be a problem when it takes over everything.

Re: How Poverty Taxes the Brain

#100

Post by scott_s »

dredmorbius wrote: post #95
angersock wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the most interesting domestic exercises is to think about how much different items cost in terms of other items. A steak dinner (say, $50) is worth just a bit more than 3 double-meat Chipotle burritos with drink and chips and guac (say, $14). Each of those burrito meals is worth a bit more than 4 dozen eggs (say, fancy-pants eggs at $3/dz.) Each of those dozen eggs is worth 20 packs of shitty ramen ($.15/pack)…

Each of those dozen eggs is worth 20 packs of shitty ramen Careful: at a point, qualitative aspects matter. Your eggs are proteins and fats (both of which are essential to survival -- your body cannot manufacture certain proteins and EFAs). Ramen is virtually 100% carbohydrate. While it's going to provide you with energy, it's not going to sustain other essential bodily functions. And I really have a hard time parsin…

As far as nutritional value goes, eggs are a great deal. Packed with protein your body can use and easy to prepare.
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