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More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

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Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#51

Post by hga »

betterunix wrote: post #47
leokun wrote: post #18

Several months ago that tone would have sounded conspiracy crazed nutty. But post-Snowden and given that it's schneier, it's sad to realize we've come to realize how bad the situation is. I'm still inclined to not change any actions on my part because I'm not worried about being under surveillance. I'm neither interesting, nor engaged in anything interesting. However, I would like it if the spying were reduced to rem…

"I'm neither interesting, nor engaged in anything interesting" You are missing a word: yet . You are not interesting yet . You might become interesting some time in the future, and discover that what you thought were uninteresting conversations today can be used against you. Here is a famous example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Fisher_%28lawyer%29

The problem is the National Lawyers Guild was a notorious Communist front. If you have any doubt, this line in their Wikipedia entry is utterly damning:

"Following the Nazis' invasion of the Soviet Union, the Guild gave its support to President Roosevelt's wartime policies, including that of Japanese American internment."

Would people say the same if Ficher's "youthful indiscretion" if he'd worked for a Nazi front after, say, Kristallnacht? (See the above quote, they wouldn't have between 23 August 1939 and 22 June 1941.) Was it that difficult for Ficher avoid working for a cause dedicated to the violent overthrow of the US government and the liquidation of its "capitalist" classes including the wealthier farmers?

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#52

Post by wpietri »

7952 wrote: post #21
Lagged2Death wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...what I disagree with is the needless "dig" at companies that store and analyze large amounts of data, as if that somehow is invalid conduct. The argument against building systems to amass huge databases of personal information has always been that the very existence of such systems would almost inevitably lead to abuse, through inappropriate expansion of the collection activity and through inappropriate uses of th…

Arguably the collection of large amounts of private data is a fundamental property of the internet and impossible to avoid. In a world of government back doors into hardware and software the difference between cloud and local is an increasingly mute point for most people; making privacy a technical improbability. If any connected device can be accessed how can invalid conduct ever be avoided?

The fundamental property of the internet is connection. Everything else is in how we use it.

The fundamental property of land is spatial relation. Using that, you can build a town of little houses, where everybody has a modest and equal helping of privacy. You can build a giant open agora, where everybody can see everybody's business. Or you can build a panoptic prison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#53

Post by legutierr »

outside1234 wrote: post #33

I feel like we've identified this problem to death. I think now the real question is, as an internet community, what are we going to do about it? Are we going to build something that 'routes around' this? Are we going to protest? Or are we just going to keep identifying the problem and complaining about it on Twitter? I'm not saying that I'm not one of those people too - I'm just saying we need to start thinking abou…

It seems to me that the only way to bring about real policy change in the US is to organize politically. If you can deliver votes in November, then you can get things done.

Part of the problem is that other than the EFF and ACLU, there isn't really a "privacy lobby" in the US. And neither of these organizations are effective in shaping election outcomes.

What is needed is something like the 2nd-ammendment lobby or the "Family Values" lobby--one that not only talks about policy, but one which also rewards allies and penalizes enemies at the ballot box. The way that the NRA and the Christian Coalition do it is through grass-roots organizing, and a massive donor base that they basically direct in a centralized manner, which puts them in an unassailable negotiating position on Capital Hill.

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#54

Post by Lagged2Death »

Aaronontheweb wrote: post #49
Lagged2Death wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies can't detain you in an airport or throw you in prison... Neither can the NSA. Remember this? ( http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/08/government-k... ) Cops searched this family's house at a private corporation's behest, more or less. The fact that a large database is privately held isn't going to protect you from the government.

Actually, that story was later proven to be false and hysterics drummed up by the woman who was searched. Skip to the update: http://watchdog.org/98870/feds-raid-home-after-couple-search... http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/08/01/employer-... Her employer tipped off the FBI after seeing suspicious searches show up in their logs. Not Google. Please check your facts and leave the tinfoil hat hysterics at the…

Her employer tipped off the FBI after seeing suspicious searches show up in their logs. Not Google.

Yes, that's what I said in my comment, that's what it says in the link you just posted, that's what it says in the link I posted, and that is the story you are telling me now as some sort of correction.

It's not hysteria to say that they got their house searched as a result of a Google search, or as the ultimate result of the actions of a private corporation; those are facts we apparently agree on, facts that every single media report on the incident agreed on, AFAIK. Its the consensus view.

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#55

Post by hga »

legutierr wrote: post #53
outside1234 wrote: post #33

I feel like we've identified this problem to death. I think now the real question is, as an internet community, what are we going to do about it? Are we going to build something that 'routes around' this? Are we going to protest? Or are we just going to keep identifying the problem and complaining about it on Twitter? I'm not saying that I'm not one of those people too - I'm just saying we need to start thinking abou…

It seems to me that the only way to bring about real policy change in the US is to organize politically. If you can deliver votes in November, then you can get things done. Part of the problem is that other than the EFF and ACLU, there isn't really a "privacy lobby" in the US. And neither of these organizations are effective in shaping election outcomes. What is needed is something like the 2nd-ammendment lobby or th…

Don't look at the "Family Values" lobby, they get lip service but no serious favorable actions in return for their votes. One reason they're fading away (the main other one is that Carter's attacks on their schools are a distant memory).

The concept of the applying the lessons of the 2nd Amendment lobby was extensively discussed here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6185138

Here's the contents of my top comment, which I think frames the concept well:

"Until we have specific, actual, real privacy atrocities I can't see this effort getting the traction of any of the groups you've specified. Labor had company towns and less but still specifically abusive employers, with plenty of specific people maimed or killed in unsafe workplaces or labor actions. Environmentalists had deformed children from Japanese industrial mercury dumping, and, oh, the Cuyahoga River catching on fire. Gun grabbers have killed, maimed, or otherwise grossly abused thousands of people and that continues to this day.

"What specific incidents, with victims most will empathize with, can the privacy effort point to?"

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#56

Post by axus »

Aaronontheweb wrote: post #49
Lagged2Death wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies can't detain you in an airport or throw you in prison... Neither can the NSA. Remember this? ( http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/08/government-k... ) Cops searched this family's house at a private corporation's behest, more or less. The fact that a large database is privately held isn't going to protect you from the government.

Actually, that story was later proven to be false and hysterics drummed up by the woman who was searched. Skip to the update: http://watchdog.org/98870/feds-raid-home-after-couple-search... http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/08/01/employer-... Her employer tipped off the FBI after seeing suspicious searches show up in their logs. Not Google. Please check your facts and leave the tinfoil hat hysterics at the…

Weird, why were her husband and son using her work computer? Maybe she brought it home, and they used it, and her company monitored her in her home?

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#57

Post by coldtea »

AsymetricCom wrote: post #43
outside1234 wrote: post #33

I feel like we've identified this problem to death. I think now the real question is, as an internet community, what are we going to do about it? Are we going to build something that 'routes around' this? Are we going to protest? Or are we just going to keep identifying the problem and complaining about it on Twitter? I'm not saying that I'm not one of those people too - I'm just saying we need to start thinking abou…

I'm not a big fan of Bruce. He does have some valuable technical things to read though, you just have to take his personal opinions with a grain of salt.

I wouldn't read anybody that you would not have to take his personal opinions with a grain of salt.

Middle of the road, all-too-careful opinions are totally off base with reality.

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#58

Post by coldtea »

yebyen wrote: post #34
epistasis wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By stopping reporting that, they have divulged that they received a letter. So once you receive one, in order to avoid prosecution, you need to keep your notification up as a continuous lie.

No way. You can be compelled by the courts to actively perpetuate a lie? I don't think so. The deal with the warrant canary is the guy signs a new message every (day?), actively affirming that he hasn't been served with any such secret warrants. What if he gets tired of it? Same with running the business? You can't be compelled to work forever, neither for free or otherwise.

>No way. You can be compelled by the courts to actively perpetuate a lie? I don't think so.

Sure you can. For one, what about people pleading guilty, when they are not, just because their case looks bad and they want to avoid a trial that can put then in jail for decades and get a plea bargain?

That's actually encouraged by the DAs.

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#59

Post by drcube »

> To be fair, we don't know if the government can actually convict someone of closing a business.

The Thirteenth Amendment makes it pretty clear you can't force a person to work, unless they've been convicted of a crime. There may be an argument that he violated the NSL, but that's not the same thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...

Re: More on the NSA Commandeering the Internet

#60

Post by pkinsky »

hga wrote: post #55
legutierr wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that the only way to bring about real policy change in the US is to organize politically. If you can deliver votes in November, then you can get things done. Part of the problem is that other than the EFF and ACLU, there isn't really a "privacy lobby" in the US. And neither of these organizations are effective in shaping election outcomes. What is needed is something like the 2nd-ammendment lobby or th…

Don't look at the "Family Values" lobby, they get lip service but no serious favorable actions in return for their votes. One reason they're fading away (the main other one is that Carter's attacks on their schools are a distant memory). The concept of the applying the lessons of the 2nd Amendment lobby was extensively discussed here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6185138 Here's the contents of my top comment,…

Martin Luther King was spied on and blackmailed by the FBI. It's a bit dated, but a good place to start.

http://news.firedoglake.com/2013/01/21/the-fbi-wrote-a-lette...

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