Bring Me Your Accents. Immigration Fuels Innovation • Hacker News Board

Re: Bring Me Your Accents. Immigration Fuels Innovation

#31

Post by auctiontheory » Thu, Aug 29, 2013, 5:51 PM UTC

parennoob wrote: post #4

I guess this might be a good place to ask -- are there any good places people can recommend for accent training? I can write English pretty decently (in fact, probably better than most of the American people I have seen - but I guess Dunning-Kruger might be involved.) But I still retain the accent of my native country, which somewhat hampers me in the US (specially if PG thinks people like that are clueless.) So, can…

In SF, I really like my voice coach, Eugene O'Reilly: eugeneor@att.net. (I have no financial connection with him other than as a satisfied customer.) I believe he also does online accent preparation. His website is horrid - don't judge him by that.

Re: Bring Me Your Accents. Immigration Fuels Innovation

#32

Post by OoTheNigerian » Thu, Aug 29, 2013, 5:51 PM UTC

dylangs1030 wrote: post #22

OoTheNigerian wrote: post #11

I will state my position unlike those afraid to speak so they can have deal-flow or perhaps enter YC. I do not doubt that there may be correlation between people who have performed poorly in YC and "very strong accents", it does not mean causation. Such a statement from someone whom people hang to his every-word should not be put out without clarification. The defense of "accents so strong you cannot understand" hold…

I think people are blowing this out of proportion. > I do not doubt that there may be correlation between people who have performed poorly in YC and "very strong accents", it does not mean causation. It doesn't matter what the cause is, he's an investor, not a doctor. The cause is irrelevant. If there's correlation, that's enough to say no. Being an investor is a game where you find what's wrong before you try to fin…

There is no need going back and forth and I do not want to be remembered as the person being antagonistic towards PG. So I will end with this comment.

Perhaps I am taking this too personal.

People always refuse (till tomorrow) to reply my emails when I put 'Nigeria(n) in it. Why? Because they had until that time, never received a legitimate email from Nigeria. As a result, all Nigerians became blacklisted.

I am not talking assumption here, I am talking about those who I ended up visiting and becoming friends with, who opened up to tell me their thinking when they first got my email.

Paul Graham is within his right to patten match all he wants. I personally believe it is at the least "not too proper" to opine your pattern matching as scientific (even mildly) ESPECIALLY when you have the power he has. If you must it has to have the proper context.

I am sure before Eminem, Dr DRE had stats that matched a particular pattern. I am glad he did not announce it to the world as an 'aha'.

With great power comes great responsibility.

Re: Bring Me Your Accents. Immigration Fuels Innovation

#33

Post by rogerchucker » Thu, Aug 29, 2013, 5:53 PM UTC

dylangs1030 wrote: post #25

OoTheNigerian wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sir, have just described pattern matching. e.g Thee cliche white male that attended an Ivy League school was successful. therefore, to be safe I go that way all the time. This then goes ahead and pollutes your data-set because it would be built on that bias. Now, I am not saying that those that patten match are bad, but they should at the very least try not to make their 'findings' influence other people who migh…

If being male, being white, and attending Harvard are all positively correlated with being successful in a startup, then there's actually nothing wrong with selectively looking for those qualifiers. Does it make it more difficult to get a foot in the door if you're female, Ecuadorian and went to a community college, despite being a phenomenal programmer with a great idea? Yes, it does make it more difficult, but that…

You perfectly described why affirmative action will always exist.

Re: Bring Me Your Accents. Immigration Fuels Innovation

#34

Post by 446545 » Thu, Aug 29, 2013, 5:59 PM UTC

OoTheNigerian wrote: post #32

dylangs1030 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people are blowing this out of proportion. > I do not doubt that there may be correlation between people who have performed poorly in YC and "very strong accents", it does not mean causation. It doesn't matter what the cause is, he's an investor, not a doctor. The cause is irrelevant. If there's correlation, that's enough to say no. Being an investor is a game where you find what's wrong before you try to fin…

There is no need going back and forth and I do not want to be remembered as the person being antagonistic towards PG. So I will end with this comment. Perhaps I am taking this too personal. People always refuse (till tomorrow) to reply my emails when I put 'Nigeria(n) in it. Why? Because they had until that time, never received a legitimate email from Nigeria. As a result, all Nigerians became blacklisted. I am not t…

>>There is no need going back and forth and I do not want to be remembered as the person being antagonistic towards PG. So I will end with this comment.

I'm juzt glad you never tried to zell uz a bridge.

O, wait, I'm pattern matching here. My bad.

Re: Bring Me Your Accents. Immigration Fuels Innovation

#35

Post by tedunangst » Thu, Aug 29, 2013, 6:01 PM UTC

cglee wrote: post #29

dylangs1030 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If being male, being white, and attending Harvard are all positively correlated with being successful in a startup, then there's actually nothing wrong with selectively looking for those qualifiers. Does it make it more difficult to get a foot in the door if you're female, Ecuadorian and went to a community college, despite being a phenomenal programmer with a great idea? Yes, it does make it more difficult, but that…

I think you just rationalized discrimination. Nice work.

Discrimination is not irrational. As a society we have determined that we value an individual's desire to get a job more than a business's desire for an efficient filtering mechanism.

"Discrimination is rational" and "discrimination is bad" are not mutually exclusive.

Re: Bring Me Your Accents. Immigration Fuels Innovation

#36

Post by newnewnew » Thu, Aug 29, 2013, 6:19 PM UTC

dylangs1030 wrote: post #22

OoTheNigerian wrote: post #11

I will state my position unlike those afraid to speak so they can have deal-flow or perhaps enter YC. I do not doubt that there may be correlation between people who have performed poorly in YC and "very strong accents", it does not mean causation. Such a statement from someone whom people hang to his every-word should not be put out without clarification. The defense of "accents so strong you cannot understand" hold…

I think people are blowing this out of proportion. > I do not doubt that there may be correlation between people who have performed poorly in YC and "very strong accents", it does not mean causation. It doesn't matter what the cause is, he's an investor, not a doctor. The cause is irrelevant. If there's correlation, that's enough to say no. Being an investor is a game where you find what's wrong before you try to fin…

Agreed. Your warm squishy egalitarian philosophy has nothing to do with what it takes to build software or launch a startup. Unforgiving reality is the rock upon which ideology founders

Re: Bring Me Your Accents. Immigration Fuels Innovation

#37

Post by cglee » Thu, Aug 29, 2013, 6:19 PM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #35

cglee wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just rationalized discrimination. Nice work.

Discrimination is not irrational. As a society we have determined that we value an individual's desire to get a job more than a business's desire for an efficient filtering mechanism. "Discrimination is rational" and "discrimination is bad" are not mutually exclusive.

The fact that discrimination seems natural means that we need to fight against it consciously, not rationalize it as acceptable.

If you value diversity, equality, etc, then you have to actively monitor your own discriminatory tendencies and lead with respect, compassion, love instead of rationality and pattern matching.

Re: Bring Me Your Accents. Immigration Fuels Innovation

#38

Post by dylangs1030 » Thu, Aug 29, 2013, 6:21 PM UTC

cglee wrote: post #29

dylangs1030 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If being male, being white, and attending Harvard are all positively correlated with being successful in a startup, then there's actually nothing wrong with selectively looking for those qualifiers. Does it make it more difficult to get a foot in the door if you're female, Ecuadorian and went to a community college, despite being a phenomenal programmer with a great idea? Yes, it does make it more difficult, but that…

I think you just rationalized discrimination. Nice work.

I think you just disregarded my entire argument using a cultural taboo. Nice work.

See? I can play at that game too. The problem is, doing that doesn't get anywhere, because I'm still convinced of my point, and you're still convinced of yours, and there's no dialectic to compromise our ideas.

Re: Bring Me Your Accents. Immigration Fuels Innovation

#39

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 29, 2013, 6:25 PM UTC

dylangs1030 wrote: post #38

cglee wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just rationalized discrimination. Nice work.

I think you just disregarded my entire argument using a cultural taboo. Nice work. See? I can play at that game too. The problem is, doing that doesn't get anywhere, because I'm still convinced of my point, and you're still convinced of yours, and there's no dialectic to compromise our ideas.

[deleted]

Re: Bring Me Your Accents. Immigration Fuels Innovation

#40

Post by dylangs1030 » Thu, Aug 29, 2013, 6:26 PM UTC

OoTheNigerian wrote: post #32

dylangs1030 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people are blowing this out of proportion. > I do not doubt that there may be correlation between people who have performed poorly in YC and "very strong accents", it does not mean causation. It doesn't matter what the cause is, he's an investor, not a doctor. The cause is irrelevant. If there's correlation, that's enough to say no. Being an investor is a game where you find what's wrong before you try to fin…

There is no need going back and forth and I do not want to be remembered as the person being antagonistic towards PG. So I will end with this comment. Perhaps I am taking this too personal. People always refuse (till tomorrow) to reply my emails when I put 'Nigeria(n) in it. Why? Because they had until that time, never received a legitimate email from Nigeria. As a result, all Nigerians became blacklisted. I am not t…

I don't think you're being antagonistic towards PG, but I respect your not wanting to get into a heated debate. Nor do I.

I can see a reasonable case for you to say PG should add more clarification to his words when he's in an interview, but I also think PG has already done this. In at least two other places, Graham has publicly clarified what he meant by his comment about foreign accents. Perhaps if he had yet to do that and people were making a big fuss over his words, then I'd agree. But I think he's already done the due diligence.