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Confessions of a failed indie developer

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Re: Confessions of a failed indie developer

#21

Post by zanny »

As a 21 year old, I don't see how you could try to go indie with a family and mortgage. I'm in a position where I could now (couchsurf my family until my thing is ready and have $0 expenses) but I just look out at a sea of mediocre indies with "fresh" ideas that are just respins on the same old, often in the form of some 2d platformer with sprites or on Unity.

That just isn't compelling to me, but that is a personal thing. So I don't do it. But while I don't do it now because of my personal outlook (also considering I'm not interested in game dev because the industry eats people alive) I definitely wouldn't fathom risking my family for a pipe dream. And then build my own game engine.

My question is, if you are a game dev dissatisfied with being an office robot, why not get a few friends and make your own dev house? It would be "indie" but you could ask around publishers pitching ideas or doing a kickstarter with more people and a fixed funding goal, with a much better understanding that games take 500% more time than you expect minimum, and make something big. You have the credentials after a decade or more in the industry to attract attention, I'd hope.

Re: Confessions of a failed indie developer

#22

Post by 6d0debc071 »

cousin_it wrote: post #14
sfjailbird wrote: post #4

A couple of observations. You probably shouldn't think that you can get your indie game done in a year, release, and ramp up revenue so fast that you'll soon be self-sustaining. Sounds obvious, but most guys starting out actually believe that there's a chance of it playing out like this. Starry-eyed optimism is probably a precondition for going anywhere near this business in the first place, but it must be tempered a…

I never worked on games and don't want to, but this question bugs me: what would it take to convince someone to invest in a gamedev effort? It just sounds like a very poor investment. If Alice and Bob are both willing to invest in their own pet projects, but not willing to invest in each other's, doesn't that mean one of them is provably irrational?

Well, most people seem to be irrational - to varying degrees.

Though I'd expect them both to have information advantages in their own projects so maybe that's not as big a factor as one might think.

Re: Confessions of a failed indie developer

#23

Post by icebraining »

unz wrote: post #16
lod wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all I would have to say that's really harsh, both on the industry and the developer. He may have been a bit delusional and not thought the plan through but he learned why he was wrong and got better from it. Calling game development "useless" is a stretch however, they have always combined math,art,computers,music,... into one single piece. They have also personally broguht me into the world of programming.…

I'm not saying that entertainment doesn't have value. I said it's perfectly fine if you're earning an income from creating it and it's OK as a hobby to create. But otherwise, the market (the people that constitute the world) have told you it's not valuable. Art for art's sake is great, but it doesn't mean artists should get a free pass to do whatever they want and the rest of us digging coal mines and waiting tables…

Art for art's sake is great, but it doesn't mean artists should get a free pass to do whatever they want and the rest of us digging coal mines and waiting tables give them money for art we don't like.

And where has anyone said we should? I didn't see OP demanding public subsidies. You're just attacking a dumb strawman.

Re: Confessions of a failed indie developer

#24

Post by soup10 »

crazygringo wrote: post #11

Sometimes I wish there were an article like this on HN every day. The relentless upbeat-ness of the startup world can get to be too much, and it's healthy to hear humbling stories of reality.

Agreed. Most startups and indie games especially are fucked. More emphasis on how long the odds are or how difficult the journey usually is for a startup or small business would be good. I know a bunch of people working on startups who are just so naive when it comes to the risk and low probability of success.

It's so easy to get excited about a project and caught up in hubris and optimism.

Re: Confessions of a failed indie developer

#25

Post by corresation »

zanny wrote: post #21

As a 21 year old, I don't see how you could try to go indie with a family and mortgage. I'm in a position where I could now (couchsurf my family until my thing is ready and have $0 expenses) but I just look out at a sea of mediocre indies with "fresh" ideas that are just respins on the same old, often in the form of some 2d platformer with sprites or on Unity. That just isn't compelling to me, but that is a personal…

As a 21 year old, I don't see how you could try to go indie with a family and mortgage.

As a seasoned developer with a family and mortgage, I don't see how you could go indie as a 21 year old. Your probability of achieving absolutely nothing approaches 100% (and the end result may be career damage that will carry through for the rest of your professional life).

This story really has nothing to do with the fact that the guy has a family or a mortgage, and exactly the same realities apply to a 21 year old with rent and car payments. So it's a little humorous seeing every 21 year old (speaking of many if not most of the comments on Reddit) trying to declare that his core issue, which is really wishful "it won't happen to me!" denial. If anything, the guy with the mortgage and family obligations should have the motivation to achieve what is necessary, whereas this guy seemed to make horrible choice after horrible choice.

The story here is simply that he had a gross inability to estimate (if, as his runway comes to an end, he has so little...wow). And despite the fact that you disparage 2d platformers and Unity, the reality is that Unity, for instance, does a dramatically better job as a basic engine (for essentially all sorts of games) than the overwhelming majority of developers will do on their own - if you aren't John Carmack, your probability of doing something better is incredibly unlikely.

This isn't about pride (oh, boastful "I'm too proud to use that..."), it's about raw stupidity. It's building your house by deciding that you'll first make your own drill because surely you can do it better than DeWalt. Starting your web app by first making a custom web browser. It is project planning and introspection gone perilously off track.

Re: Confessions of a failed indie developer

#26

Post by corresation »

unz wrote: post #10

Doesn't this guy realize that asking for money they way he did with flex funding defies logic. If you only raise some of the money, how were expecting to finish the project, and what about the people who gave you money - you just scammed them. He still hasn't paid them back yet, instead saying he owes them a game! Trying not to be harsh, but this guy is obviously clueless - built his own game engine - maybe he should…

open your eyes to the multitude of problems that exist out there, in the REAL WORLD, and fix those?

I had originally thought you were going to comment on the financial risks and unlikely returns of indie development, but instead it sounds like you're morally judging?

Most of the developers who frequent HN are not working on "real problems".

Re: Confessions of a failed indie developer

#28

Post by unz »

icebraining wrote: post #23
unz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying that entertainment doesn't have value. I said it's perfectly fine if you're earning an income from creating it and it's OK as a hobby to create. But otherwise, the market (the people that constitute the world) have told you it's not valuable. Art for art's sake is great, but it doesn't mean artists should get a free pass to do whatever they want and the rest of us digging coal mines and waiting tables…

Art for art's sake is great, but it doesn't mean artists should get a free pass to do whatever they want and the rest of us digging coal mines and waiting tables give them money for art we don't like. And where has anyone said we should? I didn't see OP demanding public subsidies. You're just attacking a dumb strawman.

His wife, the crowdfund backers, and the net loss to society by him taking himself out of productive business. Those are not 'dumb strawmans'.

And I wasn't talking about him in that comment, but the various starving artists who usually free ride on spouse/family/friends/welfare.

Re: Confessions of a failed indie developer

#29

Post by JabavuAdams »

zanny wrote: post #21

As a 21 year old, I don't see how you could try to go indie with a family and mortgage. I'm in a position where I could now (couchsurf my family until my thing is ready and have $0 expenses) but I just look out at a sea of mediocre indies with "fresh" ideas that are just respins on the same old, often in the form of some 2d platformer with sprites or on Unity. That just isn't compelling to me, but that is a personal…

> As a 21 year old, I don't see how you could try to go indie with a family and mortgage.

Older devs can more easily have 6 mo to a couple of years in savings. It's not fun to burn that down, but it's quite a different situation from having no savings and student loans.

Also, having a partner with whom you can talk about money, strategize about money, and share income / savings with is a huge advantage.

Re: Confessions of a failed indie developer

#30

Post by unz »

corresation wrote: post #26
unz wrote: post #10

Doesn't this guy realize that asking for money they way he did with flex funding defies logic. If you only raise some of the money, how were expecting to finish the project, and what about the people who gave you money - you just scammed them. He still hasn't paid them back yet, instead saying he owes them a game! Trying not to be harsh, but this guy is obviously clueless - built his own game engine - maybe he should…

open your eyes to the multitude of problems that exist out there, in the REAL WORLD, and fix those? I had originally thought you were going to comment on the financial risks and unlikely returns of indie development, but instead it sounds like you're morally judging? Most of the developers who frequent HN are not working on "real problems".

They're the same thing, you'll only get paid if you solve real problems (though that's not really true, a lot of people get paid by stealing - most of the finance industry, many government employees, and much of senior management in industry).
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