Defeated • Hacker News Board

Re: Defeated

#261

Post by consultant23522 » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 2:40 PM UTC

eddieroger wrote: post #162

coldpie wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people operating the naked scanners are literally ex-pizza-delivery-dudes: http://www.loweringthebar.net/2010/07/tsa-advertising-job-op... Highly trained professionals, these are not. They're just people working their nine-to-five to get a paycheck. We pass dumb customer support tickets around the office all the time; why shouldn't they pass around hot chick photos, etc?

Cops are 9-to-5ers as well. Should we not trust them to do their job and keep us safe? They didn't walk on the job with no training - maybe the ex-pizza dudes got trained as well. Also, comparing security photos and helpdesk tickets is a bad comparison, regardless of the similarities.

No, you shouldn't. Because the job of police officers is not to keep you safe. In fact it's quite illegal for police officers to keep you safe, because keeping you safe is something that must be done before a crime is committed. Police are there to help clean up after you've been hurt in a crime. They only keep you safe in the very stretched sense of the language by hopefully preventing future undetermined crimes by the same person after they've already harmed you once.

Re: Defeated

#262

Post by toddmorey » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 2:40 PM UTC

jballanc wrote: post #32

There is an extremely simple solution: leave. I've not lived in the US for almost two years now. I've only had to travel back twice in that time. Meanwhile, in the same time I've visited France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany multiple times. None of those travel experiences were nearly as unpleasant or stressful as my two trips to the US. Furthermore, the technology communities that are growing up in these pla…

I prefer Oren's approach: writing about the experience—provoking discussion, even outrage, and eventually change.

I've lived overseas many times, but my simple advice when making life choices is to ask yourself wether you are running _to_ something (an amazing opportunity) or _away_ from something else.

Advocating for change takes stamina and patience. There are many good reasons to leave the US. And, like other nations, the US has some large and seemingly unsolvable problems. I just don't believe that the current state of airport security is immutable.

I'll concede that 9/11 had far-reaching impacts, predicated on our own fears and overreactions. What I won't concede is my home.

Re: Defeated

#263

Post by superuser2 » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 2:41 PM UTC

mkenyon wrote: post #182

flexie wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have to walk through metal detectors to buy books? I thought it was only for dangerous places like schools and offices. I can't think of anywhere in Europe we have those except for American embassies, a few courthouses, some government buildings and airports. Anyone knows when this started in the US and when it got so widespread?

I have let to see a local business in the US use a metal detector. Most will use shoplifting-detection gates at the exits. An "empty your pockets and purse" metal detector is terrible for business.

Most local businesses don't, but high-value targets like government office buildings, financial markets, museums (especially Jewish history and Holocaust memorial museums), and iconic monuments all tend to.

Re: Defeated

#264

Post by jpalioto » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 2:41 PM UTC

I had the same experience at LAX recently. It seems they are doing this on purpose to inconvenience people who opt out. When they ask me about the machine and why I don't want to go through, I simply tell them that I worked at a company that made machines like that (true) and I don't want to go through.

Re: Defeated

#265

Post by orblivion » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 2:41 PM UTC

eagsalazar2 wrote: post #125

"I won't be opting out again"? What? Give me a break. I fly weekly for work so I know the routine. 99% of the time the TSA agents are perfectly happy to do the pat down. I have had a few that have given me a hard time but then I've also had others come and apologize and emphasize that it is my right to opt-out. Keep opting out and next time someone gives you a hard time calmly ask for (1) a manager and (2) a comment…

> ALSO (jeez) don't send your stuff through until you go through! I have been told this repeatedly so most agents actually know this already but even the ones that won't prompt you to do it won't prevent it either.

Wait, how do you do this? Do I wait holding my stuff until the assist comes up, and then make them wait as I put my things on the machine? Do I get to "cut in line" and put my stuff in front of everybody else's stuff on the conveyor?

Re: Defeated

#266

Post by eeeeaaii » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 2:41 PM UTC

I ask them to guard my laptop, which they usually do since I suppose they will get in trouble if it's stolen. Actually maybe the fact that I'm asking them to watch over my laptop expedites the actual patdown, because I never have to wait long.

Re: Defeated

#267

Post by honzzz » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 2:41 PM UTC

donohoe wrote: post #194

jballanc wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so maybe "extremely" was a bit much. In my defense I think leaving is much simpler at this point than hoping that the current course of politics and public sentiment in the US will change. > 1) Barriers to work and emigration While real, they can be overcome. Also, I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect -- once other countries begin to catch on that well educated, highly trained Americans are lookin…

I think you need to also drop the "simple" part as well. >> 1) Barriers to work and emigration > While real, they can be overcome. Also, I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect This is a very non-trivial process so your casual response is a bit hard to swallow. And "domino effect" - I don't think there will be a vast tide of of people, but whatever. >> 2) Language barriers > One, you'd be amazed how much…

I agree with you that moving to another country is not simple. But I would like to offer some experience which might be encouraging to those who decide to do so.

1. I was able to happily work and live in Spain for couple of months with no knowledge of Spanish language whatsoever. It certainly limits your choices to a certain degree (I worked for one UK-based company which sent me to Madrid and it would have been difficult to find any Spanish-speaking job if I had to) but it's easier than you would think.

Now I live in the Czech Republic and I regularly visit 'English meetings' (imagine weekly organized party where anybody who speaks English is invited) and I know many foreigners (some of them are my close friends) who happily live here for years without any knowledge of Czech language.

2. Children - oh, how many times I was envious of their incredible adaptability. If they are younger than 10 - wherever you go they will have new friends in two weeks and they will speak fluently with no accent in 6 months. I had seen it many times with children of my Czech/Slovak friends when I lived in UK and I can see that now with children of my foreign friends living in the Czech Rep. 8 years old daughter of my Spanish friends speaks Spanish, Russian, Czech and English without any noticeable accent - her family moves a lot and I believe she will benefit from that tremendously. Children are so good at this that they don't need language lessons - they just pick it up from their peers while playing in a sandpit.

Re: Defeated

#268

Post by robomartin » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 2:42 PM UTC

> I give up. The terrorists have won. I'm sad and I'm angry, but the perpetual wearing-down works. I won't be opting out again.

Time for "Freedom Flights"?

The airport is one place I can think of where you are presumed guilty and have to prove your innocence through unreasonably search as well as seizure (I've had a couple of nice Swiss Army knives confiscated simply because I forgot them in my laptop bag).

Perhaps it is time to start organizing "Freedom Flights" between major cities. By this I mean that a sizable group of people book seats in a flight, say, from SFO to LAX, and every single member of the group would absolutely refuse to be searched or touched by TSA.

Every single person would be armed (yes, I said armed) with a piece of paper containing language developed by volunteer attorneys. Something in this vein: "My constitutional rights state that you cannot touch or search me and detaining me without cause is unlawful. Please get out of my way."

The idea would be to make a point. Nobody should expect to get on a flight, at least not before a few tries. Conventional and social media channels would be alerted in order to get coverage. I can't think of a better way to raise awareness and make a point.

We are being treated like criminals, all of us. This has to stop. Enough is enough.

Re: Defeated

#269

Post by ksrm » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 2:42 PM UTC

flyt wrote: post #3

When you go into the millimeter-wave machine and the TSA employee asks you to raise your arms, tell them that you can't, but don't elaborate (and they usually won't ask why). Every time I've done this they let me go through the regular metal detector with no argument or subsequent pat downs or screening.

Do this and then stretch your arms, or give someone a high-five. I wonder if they would do anything.

Re: Defeated

#270

Post by laureny » Mon, Aug 26, 2013, 2:43 PM UTC

> I give up. The terrorists have won.

Or maybe you could recognize that flying is a privilege, not a right, and that you have other options if you want to make a stand in your beliefs, such as picking a different airline, going to your destination by some other means or, you know, not traveling.

These entitled smug conspiracy theorists who act like prima donnas irritate me.

"The terrorists have won" because you had to go through a machine? I think it's time for the OP to step back, take a hard look at their life and wonder if they have their priorities straight. There are much more interesting and worthy things to worry about.