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Defeated

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Re: Defeated

#121

Post by raverbashing »

bane wrote: post #102
raverbashing wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the general spirit of your post, however: Amsterdam Schipol has (a lot of) scanning machines as well. Germany has more freedom in certain areas and less freedom in others. (you can't take your empty bottles to the recycling bins on Sunday for example)

I'd also add that the three worst travel experiences I've ever had were: immigration at Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport, anything at all London-Heathrow, immigration at Toronto Pearson. Schiphol, El Prat, Marco Polo, Dublin, da Vinci, Kloten and Munich get me in and out without any fuss at all. Though security at Schiphol was about what you'd contend with at Dulles. Domodedovo and Koltsovo are very mediocre and busy,…

I'll agree with 2 of your 3 worst travel experiences only because I haven't experienced one of them personally, but for the other two, I agree 100%

The funny thing is, in CDG, what was bad was the immigration exit control. Entry was a breeze and I was asked exactly zero questions even having presented a non-EU passport.

Re: Defeated

#122

Post by ssalbiz »

I've been allowed to keep my belongings with me when I opt-out in the past. This has helped alleviate the stress of opting out considerably.

Re: Defeated

#123

Post by 14113 »

VMG wrote: post #59
raverbashing wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the general spirit of your post, however: Amsterdam Schipol has (a lot of) scanning machines as well. Germany has more freedom in certain areas and less freedom in others. (you can't take your empty bottles to the recycling bins on Sunday for example)

of all the things bothering me about Germany, this is not one of them. More the fact that nearly all shops close at 8pm and everything is closed on sunday.

8pm? that's late...more or less everything (apart from the supermarkets) shuts in the UK at about 5:30-6:00...

Re: Defeated

#124

Post by outworlder »

jballanc wrote: post #32

There is an extremely simple solution: leave. I've not lived in the US for almost two years now. I've only had to travel back twice in that time. Meanwhile, in the same time I've visited France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany multiple times. None of those travel experiences were nearly as unpleasant or stressful as my two trips to the US. Furthermore, the technology communities that are growing up in these pla…

Leaving your own country is never "simple".

Re: Defeated

#125

Post by eagsalazar2 »

"I won't be opting out again"? What? Give me a break.

I fly weekly for work so I know the routine. 99% of the time the TSA agents are perfectly happy to do the pat down. I have had a few that have given me a hard time but then I've also had others come and apologize and emphasize that it is my right to opt-out.

Keep opting out and next time someone gives you a hard time calmly ask for (1) a manager and (2) a comment card. They have both and they are eager not to have you make an official record that there has been a problem. An agent should never express their political opinion to you or try to influence your decision to opt out. Instantly when one of them does this you should ask for a manager and a comment card and refuse to talk to him anymore.

ALSO (jeez) don't send your stuff through until you go through! I have been told this repeatedly so most agents actually know this already but even the ones that won't prompt you to do it won't prevent it either.

Anyway, man don't give up so easily.

Re: Defeated

#126

Post by jonknee »

cbr wrote: post #48
flyt wrote: post #3

When you go into the millimeter-wave machine and the TSA employee asks you to raise your arms, tell them that you can't, but don't elaborate (and they usually won't ask why). Every time I've done this they let me go through the regular metal detector with no argument or subsequent pat downs or screening.

If a lot of able-bodied people start doing this then the TSA may start giving people who actually can't raise their arms a hard time.

That would be great. The first time they do it to someone like John McCain the program will end. The ADA is easy to violate and the penalties are severe, challenging people to raise their arms would be a plaintiff lawyer's wet dream.

Re: Defeated

#127

Post by prawn »

aestra wrote: post #87
prawn wrote: post #39

The terrorists have won. I don't think the terrorists won, they just provided the push. The commercial interests and their lobbyists have won. And by that, I mean they continue to win.

No, the author is correct. The terrorist have won. ter·ror·ism [ter-uh-riz-uhm] noun 1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes. 2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization. co·erce [koh-urs] verb (used with object), co·erced, co·erc·ing. 1. to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, especially without regard for individual desire…

Not sure if you're taking a literal line or listing the government as the intimidators. Maybe we have differing judgements of "winning".

I don't think the government is "winning" here. They're just doing their thing.

And I don't think terrorists are gleefully watching the increase in security theatre and thinking "Falling right into our trap! Now where's your freedom?" Entire generations have been raised with the US as an adversary and the destruction, not lockdown, would be the goal.

However, I do think commercial interests are gaining influence/control "by exploiting fear, anxiety", but I think it's less about political purposes and more about simple monetary gain. Expos, conferences, big budget tenders and sales to government. Literally millions of dollars.

As another example, consider the fake explosive detection devices being fraudulently sold to countries like Thailand, etc. They're little more than divining rods. Government isn't winning. Terrorists aren't winning. Sellers of fake detection devices? Winning.

Re: Defeated

#128

Post by jkhaxxe »

jballanc wrote: post #116
mosburger wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Extremely simple?" There's lots of reasons it isn't so simple for people. 1) Barriers to work and emigration 2) Language barriers - I know that learning a new language isn't impossible (I know a little Spanish but I'd hardly call myself fluent), but I speak only English fluently, which limits me to a handful of nations, many of which are nearly as bad as the United States (hey UK, how are those surveillance cameras?…

Ok, so maybe "extremely" was a bit much. In my defense I think leaving is much simpler at this point than hoping that the current course of politics and public sentiment in the US will change. > 1) Barriers to work and emigration While real, they can be overcome. Also, I'd wager there will be something of a domino effect -- once other countries begin to catch on that well educated, highly trained Americans are lookin…

"well educated, highly trained American's"

ironic...

Re: Defeated

#129

Post by jonknee »

xpaulbettsx wrote: post #9
highace wrote: post #4

Can someone please explain what's wrong with going through the machine? If it means not having my balls squeezed, it sounds pretty good to me.

Consider the following: if that identical machine were in a hospital, it would have been required to go through years of clinical trials to ensure its safety over the long term. The machines they are using are medical equipment. However, because it's in an airport, none of this has happened . Maybe it is safe. Maybe it isn't. It is unproven .

Conversely, if the machine was in a hospital there would be a $1000+ charge for your scan and another bill from whoever "reads" the scan.

Re: Defeated

#130

Post by coldpie »

eagsalazar2 wrote: post #125

"I won't be opting out again"? What? Give me a break. I fly weekly for work so I know the routine. 99% of the time the TSA agents are perfectly happy to do the pat down. I have had a few that have given me a hard time but then I've also had others come and apologize and emphasize that it is my right to opt-out. Keep opting out and next time someone gives you a hard time calmly ask for (1) a manager and (2) a comment…

I agree with you, though the longest wait I've had was about 15 minutes. My girlfriend has had about the same length, since they didn't have any women clowns at that station and had to call one from another station.

The TSA clowns aren't there to make your life hell, they're there to do their useless jobs. Like any other position, sometimes the employees are bad at their jobs.

I am confused about this, though:

> ALSO (jeez) don't send your stuff through until you go through! I have been told this repeatedly so most agents actually know this already but even the ones that won't prompt you to do it won't prevent it either.

I always wait in the line, send my stuff through, and then tell the clown next to the scanner that I'm opting out. Do you approach the clown first, carrying all your stuff? When do you put your stuff through the scanner (i.e. how do you "cut" into the line)?

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