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Programmers Need To Learn Statistics Or I Will Kill Them All (2005)

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Re: Programmers Need To Learn Statistics Or I Will Kill Them All (2005)

#71

Post by mr_justin »

m_ wrote: post #31
megaduck wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't that people know nothing about statistics. The problem is that they think they know more than they actually do. It's fairly easy to get past your "intro to stats" class with only a passing familiarity with the subject and no deep understanding. Only once you truly grasp stats do you realize that you don't actually know anything. Any statistical formula will predict its own failure. That's kind of mi…

I studied CS and I got past my "intro to stats" class with only a passing familiarity with the subject and no deep understanding (aside from the probability aspects of the course). The professor was very poor overall. I was able to cram enough to do well, but I retained very little after the final. I would love a deep understanding built from the foundations-- the coursework we had was a lot more obtuse and "take my…

By "intro to stats" do you mean the calc-based stats class that most people in CS take? I'd hardly call that an intro class considering you need to complete Calc I & II before enrolling.

Re: Programmers Need To Learn Statistics Or I Will Kill Them All (2005)

#72

Post by randome »

pat on the back for you -- you understand intro college statistics... maybe you just work with shitty programmers that don't understand statistics????? i dunno but most of my colleagues know stats pretty damn well. but maybe thats just because i'm in school

Re: Programmers Need To Learn Statistics Or I Will Kill Them All (2005)

#73

Post by randome »

dschobel wrote: post #15

Serious question: who here who has at least a BS in CS didn't have a mandatory stats class where you learned all about picking sample sizes to give you an accuracy you're happy with or that an average without a standard deviation is nigh-meaningless? It's just a fact of our profession, there is a significant percentage of people who just slap together APIs and have zero understanding of the maths behind it. I don't s…

it seems pretty mind boggling that people are that bad at stats ... we have a mandatory stats class for CS ... it doesn't teach some of the stuff mentioned in the article but the stuff mentioned is completely intuitive -- you shouldn't need to take a stats class to understand that.

like if the variance of your result is really high and you're estimating the mean its clear that the number of samples you take is important !?!

Re: Programmers Need To Learn Statistics Or I Will Kill Them All (2005)

#74

Post by daleharvey »

delano wrote: post #67
biohacker42 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if this is a "feature" of women or all minorities? For example, do male nurses show the same egolessness as female programmers?

I might be misunderstanding your comment, but women are not a minority. http://www16.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=male+population+in+no...

female programmers most certainly are though.

Re: Programmers Need To Learn Statistics Or I Will Kill Them All (2005)

#75

Post by tsally »

WilliamLP wrote: post #50

> I think women are better programmers because they have less ego and are typically more interested in the gear rather than the pissing contest. People need to stop writing shit like this. If it's not okay to say that men are better programmers simply because of their gender (it's not), then it's not okay to say it the other way around either.

Exactly. Why not just say that ego tends to prohibit good programmers? Bringing gender into it is hardly necessary, and it actually detracts from the important point about ego.

Re: Programmers Need To Learn Statistics Or I Will Kill Them All (2005)

#76

Post by menloparkbum »

dschobel wrote: post #15

Serious question: who here who has at least a BS in CS didn't have a mandatory stats class where you learned all about picking sample sizes to give you an accuracy you're happy with or that an average without a standard deviation is nigh-meaningless? It's just a fact of our profession, there is a significant percentage of people who just slap together APIs and have zero understanding of the maths behind it. I don't s…

Data point: I am about Zed's age and majored in math and was one class away from a CS double major and I didn't have to take any stats courses. When I was in school stats was a totally different track than what most math people took. For some reason biology and business majors had to take stats but physics and math majors did not. I feel like the physics/math/CS people assumed stats was easy and you'd pick it up as needed.

Re: Programmers Need To Learn Statistics Or I Will Kill Them All (2005)

#77

Post by Periodic »

baguasquirrel wrote: post #45
dschobel wrote: post #15

Serious question: who here who has at least a BS in CS didn't have a mandatory stats class where you learned all about picking sample sizes to give you an accuracy you're happy with or that an average without a standard deviation is nigh-meaningless? It's just a fact of our profession, there is a significant percentage of people who just slap together APIs and have zero understanding of the maths behind it. I don't s…

At CMU we had a mandatory stats class but it didn't have anything concerning sample size picking. Ironically, the stats class I had to take when I was in the humanities dept. was more comprehensive. When I walked into industry, I realized after two or three years that practically everyone I'd met knew jack shit about statistics. I myself learned most of what I know from humanities-major friends and books like NLP by…

I'm currently doing a CS masters and I did my undergrad in Physics. I'm really glad that I have the background in mathematics and stats that I have. In our physics classes they really drilled into us that although our theory and homework often used exact numbers, no measurement meant anything without a measurement of the error. "A number without error is meaningless", they would say.

One thing I never fully understood was how to calculate the propagation of error. There are many useful tricks for reducing the impact of error on your final calculation, and a few things you need to watch to make sure it doesn't increase.

Re: Programmers Need To Learn Statistics Or I Will Kill Them All (2005)

#78

Post by nazgulnarsil »

DannoHung wrote: post #70
nazgulnarsil wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which is why the northern hemisphere has a slightly milder climate.

Huh, is this actually true? I had been under the impression that the orbital difference was insignificant from a climate standpoint.

there are actually several things at play, eccentricity, precession, and obliquity. the net result is that the north gets milder winters and cooler summers.

Re: Programmers Need To Learn Statistics Or I Will Kill Them All (2005)

#79

Post by GHFigs »

ironkeith wrote: post #28

You know, I've read a bunch of Zed's articles, and I always end up thinking that he's the source of most of his problems. There was a talk I saw him give (can't find the link) to a bunch of college kids where he basically said "phone in your job, do the stuff you love on your own time, everyone else is retarded and they'll never understand you." Great attitude you have there. I know guys like that; guys who are extre…

phone in your job

I know the talk you're referring to and he did not say this. He does suggest doing your best and working really hard to make sure your employers get what they want. Do the job you're paid to do and do it well.

What he advises against is going the extra mile for a company that does not trust your judgement and that you have no stake in. Leave work at work. Your job is not your life. You don't owe them anything that they aren't paying for, least of all your creativity.

I don't see how that can be construed as telling them to phone it in.

everyone else is retarded

In fact he points out several times that the people in charge at most companies are not stupid, they're just clueless about technology; not a very contentious statement last I checked. The whole first half of the talk is explaining this to an audience that has has yet to encounter it in the real world, and how to advocate for superior technical solutions in spite of it, with such "team killing, energy sucking" advice as be objective, honest, and prepared for hard technical questions. Truly industry-ruining suggestions.

I strongly suggest you watch the talk again. Even for someone that doesn't like him, you seem to have missed the point of it entirely.

Re: Programmers Need To Learn Statistics Or I Will Kill Them All (2005)

#80

Post by cellis »

WilliamLP wrote: post #50

> I think women are better programmers because they have less ego and are typically more interested in the gear rather than the pissing contest. People need to stop writing shit like this. If it's not okay to say that men are better programmers simply because of their gender (it's not), then it's not okay to say it the other way around either.

Then again, Zed Shaw isn't exactly known for being PC.
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