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How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

nytimes.com

11–20 of 191 posts

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#11
It's always in the seller's interest to create a complex and opaque system of pricing, especially when the buyer doesn't even pay for the services. This is why free markets aren't the answer to everything. It's free and open markets that drive efficiency out of any process.

The problem here is one of incentives. If I promise to pay you for mowing your neighbor's lawn, and he rarely reviews what you're doing and I rarely check with him, suddenly mowing the lawn gets really complicated and expensive. If, on the other hand, you walk next door and solicit the neighbor to mow his lawn, suddenly it's a very simple transaction. The difference is one of incentives. If the goal is to provide mowed lawns, the neighbor is the guy responsible. If the goal is to provide a rationale for writing a check? Heck, I got all kinds of easy rationales handy. I can play this game all day.

It should be illegal for anybody to pay a medical bill except for the person receiving treatment. If you want universal coverage, that's fine: pay the patient and have the patient pay the hospital and doctor. Once you begin to incentivize other players besides the patient, you're going to create a mess. I'd also recommend completely unbundling hospital services. Patients should be able to buy materials and services on the open market -- and keep the savings they make doing so. Hospitals should provide clean, sterile rooms for independent specialists to work, not form a pricing cabal controlling anything that happens inside the walls and incentivized to game the system.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#12
post #5
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turn healthcare into a government bureaucracy. Because that's an effective way to combat waste, inefficiency, and overcharging

Clearly, its a problem a free market will efficiently fix and prices will stay low.

the best solution is obviously some kind of public-private partnership, so that we can get the best parts of the public sector with the best parts of the private sector. There's no way we'll wind up with the worst parts of both.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#13
post #4
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turn healthcare into a government bureaucracy. Because that's an effective way to combat waste, inefficiency, and overcharging

at least all our patient data will be private. If we keep all of our private information in the hands of the HMOs and other corporations, the NSA might install a backdoor.

In other words, we should trust the DHHS and the IRS with information that the NSA can't be trusted to access? Am I reading that correctly?

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#14
post #2

I keep getting that feeling that something must be done. Any suggestions HN readers?

Copy the health care system of any other rich country. They all get about the same results for half the price or less.

> Copy the health care system of any other rich country.

This is easier said than done. The link between socialism, still a profane political philosophy, and municipal health care is too strong—the time it would take to switch it over is be on the order of election cycles, not years. Granted, we are already on that road, but it's going to be a long time before any mainstream politician embraces it.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#15

It's always in the seller's interest to create a complex and opaque system of pricing, especially when the buyer doesn't even pay for the services. This is why free markets aren't the answer to everything. It's free and open markets that drive efficiency out of any process. The problem here is one of incentives. If I promise to pay you for mowing your neighbor's lawn, and he rarely reviews what you're doing and I rar…

> This is why free markets aren't the answer to everything.

Perhaps I've misunderstood you here but in my opinion the way healthcare works is sort of the opposite of a free market and if a free marketplace for health services were allowed to exist then things like $500 bags of saline solution wouldn't exist.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#16
One of the big reasons for this problem is Medicare. The reimbursement that Medicare offers is often far less than it costs the hospital. Why does Medicare not cover the cost of a procedure? Usually because it did cover it in the past (to the point of generosity) and providers reacted by shifting their services to maximize the profits.

A good example is the infusion of drugs. Medicare pays ASP+4% (just cut from +6% due to sequestration). If you're a clinic that doesn't get a discount on their drugs (mostly community based clinics) you're often paying more for the drug than the gov't pays you (it's a net loss every time you prescribe the drug).

However, the gov't does pay a lot to infuse the drug. The result? Providers everywhere were starting their own infusion clinics and making a ton of money on it. The profit from infusion clinics would be used to offset the loss from the purchase of the drug. CMS clamped down on reimbursement for infusion services recently, but it's still a profit center.

This happens all the time in the US healthcare system.

So what do hospitals do? They jack up the price on every item they possibly can. Of course insurance companies know what is up, so they negotiate much better rates for all of the items. However, for those who are uninsured, they pay the charge master rate which is very inflated.

The problem with the US healthcare system is not that's a free market, because it isn't. The problem is that's not a free market and it's not a fully regulated market, it's something in between. So what happens is that some regulations are put in place, some of which cause certain procedures to be unprofitable, so providers simply shift those costs to the un-(or less) regulated prices.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#17

It's always in the seller's interest to create a complex and opaque system of pricing, especially when the buyer doesn't even pay for the services. This is why free markets aren't the answer to everything. It's free and open markets that drive efficiency out of any process. The problem here is one of incentives. If I promise to pay you for mowing your neighbor's lawn, and he rarely reviews what you're doing and I rar…

This is it in a nutshell.

The US system didn't become this way because the people involved thought it was a great idea, it became that way because of perverse incentives through which services are paid for.

All you need to do is look at how providers act and you can tell what they make money on and what they don't.

Why do you think nearly all hospitals have emergency departments? It's not because they are providing a service to the population, it's because it's a great source of profit. Same thing with cardiac centers.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#18
post #3
post #2

I keep getting that feeling that something must be done. Any suggestions HN readers?

Turn healthcare into a government bureaucracy. Because that's an effective way to combat waste, inefficiency, and overcharging

Turns out, it is.

Even if one is willing to accept them into one's general worldview... First principles - like "government is wasteful" - only go so far in the face of conflicting data. And there is a lot of it on the topic of healthcare systems.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#19
So this is by design isn't it? The fact that insurance covers everything and the hospitals do not have to eat up any costs begs for this to happen. If the majority of customers (patients) pay out of their pocket then the hospitals would be incetivized to make themselves attractive to patients. Else why the hell do they care? In fact they mark up prices multiple times to offset any unforeseen costs of eating up costs as well. There is no incentive in price transparency, no incentive to compete among hospitals. Honestly if you are covered then as an individual you don't care either. I am not sure what the solution is here.

Re: How to Charge $546 for Six Liters of Saltwater

#20
I think there are 2 big factors that always seem to be missing from these investigations. The high costs offsets individuals who don't pay for their healthcare. Keep in mind that the hospital must treat anybody who walks in the door and they frequently do not get reimbursed by the government. Also keep in mind that the solution must be perfect when it physically cannot be. Because if there is a .0001 percent chance of failure, every doctor that treated the patient gets sued, the hospital gets sued for several million, the manufacturers gets sued, the middle man gets sued, heck the receptionists probably gets sued too. Think of the costs of insurance for every party involved. Obstetricians often pay $85,000 to as much as $200,000 for malpractice insurance. That's just the doctor.

Reduce the malpractice payouts and shield doctors like other countries do. Make the government absorb more of the costs for care. The price could probably be cut by 200 to 300 bucks.

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