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Don't Fly During Ramadan

varnull.adityamukerjee.net

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Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#871

Post by icelancer »

chimeracoder wrote: post #110
sethbannon wrote: post #97

How often does this happen and not get blogged about? If you want to help stop this from happening again, I suggest donating to the ACLU: https://www.aclu.org/donate/join-renew-give

This post was unbelievably painful to write. I didn't want to relive the experience - I wanted to forget about it, but a friend of mine convinced me that I needed to let people know that these things happen, for that exact reason. That's why I wrote it.

As someone whose family was interned in camps not long ago, I appreciate you sharing this. We should not forget what atrocities we are capable of.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#872

Post by madaxe »

medeu wrote: post #832
jnbiche wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ex-soviet central Asian republics are packed full of secret police -- until 2006, Turkmenistan boasted one of the world's most famous totalitarian regimes under his Amazingself-for-life President Niyazov, and although his successor has made some reforms, things haven't gotten much better since Niyazov's death. The other republics share the same kind of government to a greater or lesser extent. IWPR at http://iwpr…

It is common mistake to count all countries with names ending "*stan" as one totalitarian region. I live in Kazakhstan whole my life (30yr) and I or all my friends hadn't any issues with police. We have one big drawback, it's called corruption, but all countries have to pass through this desease.

Yup - exactly what I just said. Kaz is VERY free compared to the US.

Put it this way - at the border between Kaz and Uzbek, we...

Stole the border guard's hat.

Wore it.

In front of him.

Stole his gun.

Wore it.

In front of him.

Then all sat around together laughing and joking eating pot noodles.

Had we done the same in the US, I would not be writing this, as I would likely have been shot dead on the spot.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#873

Post by madaxe »

rusabd wrote: post #723
angersock wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've a friend who spent a good deal of time recently in Khazakhstan, and she was very amused by my attempts to express my fears of the United States becoming an authoritarian police state. She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues. The distressing thing is that we've been putting so much machinery into place, and gotten…

I was in Kazakhstan recently. I am Muslim, religious, have beard etc... I had interview with nice КНБ ( http://www.knb.kz/ ) agent right after customs. It was about 1 minute after which I was free to go. Nothing like experience described here.

I'm white, not religious, had a car spray painted with maltese crosses and puerile jokes.

We stopped and chatted for a few minutes on the border from Russia to Kaz, and they let us go on their way. No in-depth search, no bribes, no nothing. Oh, and they take their border security seriously - they just don't do security theatre.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#874

Post by pietro »

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #839
jwr wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've a friend who spent a good deal of time recently in Khazakhstan, and she was very amused by my attempts to express my fears of the United States becoming an authoritarian police state. She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues. And she is right — the US is nowhere near being an authoritarian police state. But it i…

There is no slippery slope to authoritarianism. The US might become a police state, but it will not be authoritarian.

I'm not sure I'm following you. How is a democratic police state not de facto authoritarian?

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#875

Post by wfunction »

aspensmonster wrote: post #833
belorn wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the US is nowhere near being an authoritarian police state, at what point will US become a authoritarian police state? When they have kill lists without any trial, jury or judge? When they keep prisoners in jail indefinitely without a trial? When they torture prisoners? When state officials lie to the public? When state officials lie to public representatives? When the secret police interfere with lawyers communic…

>If the US is nowhere near being an authoritarian police state, at what point will US become a authoritarian police state? When it's too late to do anything about it.

This response is gold.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#876

Post by nske »

moocowduckquack wrote: post #814
laureny wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues. She's right, and like her, I have found it next to impossible to explain this to Americans who think the US is turning into a police state. People making this claim should spend a few hours reading on history and learn about the Gestapo or the Stasi. What's happening in the U…

"the US continues to be one of the most free countries in the world in all respects." If this is true, then why does it jail more people per capita than any other country by a long, long way? Your population can't be simultaneously one of the most free and be the most incarcerated, as that makes no sense.

It depends, some other possible explanations could be that the US justice system is that much more effective or that US inhabitants are that much more disobedient to the same laws than those of other countries. Not saying that's the case, just wouldn't be so quick to dismiss anything. US can indeed be said that are among the most free countries, but that doesn't really say anything without clarifying who we are comparing them with! My impression is that US is one of the least free countries by a relatively small margin when we compare them to most European countries and one of the most free ones, by a relatively large margin, if we consider the state of most African and Asian ones -but I think that if someone is even bothering to seriously make that last comparison, that alone is an indication that something is wrong in the US.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#877

Post by wfunction »

corresation wrote: post #352
mistercow wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and no one here knows what would happen if John Smith Anglosaxon set off the same detector in the same situation. We don't have to have direct knowledge of the impossibly specific situation you've constructed. The FBI agent flat out said that it was about his race when he said "a person of your… background". And explosive detectors are not really there to find bombs. They are there to reduce manual searches. If they…

We don't have to have direct knowledge of the impossibly specific situation you've constructed. Instead we have people saying "I am white and I set one off in 2003 in Australia and they let me through, therefore that demonstrates that this is racism" (ignore every case where non-whites got a couple of quick questions and went through). And how utterly provincial are so many people on here? What backwaters do they liv…

>> they wouldn't even tell him what they had found

> Because they believe in the flawed concept of security through obscurity

No, it's rather common sense actually.

If a suspect wanted to blow something up, he would never admit he has the chemicals he has with him (because he wouldn't be sure that the cops have actually detected that chemical, and not made some other mistake that will let him go through).

But if the cops tell him what they've found, then he'll know he's screwed, and will try to make up an excuse.

On the other hand, if he admits what the chemical is himself (probably with a proper excuse), chances are that he's probably innocent, and they'd let him go.

So, telling him what he's being accused of having actually makes it harder for him to get himself out of the mess plausibly.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#878

Post by honzzz »

I feel so sorry for this guy and I just think that I would rather 'risk' dying in a terrorist attack while flying with him than live in a society that needs do this to some random guy in order to feel safe. I get that they need to be careful when something triggers explosive detector alarm... but this? Pressuring the guy for hours without water which I would not be afraid to call a torture? Is that really necessary?

At what point does reasonable safety turn into cowardly society?

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#879

Post by madaxe »

foobarbazqux wrote: post #862
madaxe wrote: post #855

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But all of those criteria are already true in both the US and the UK. I think that was his point.

I don't believe there's a mass consensus that it's an authoritarian regime. I'm not even sure there's a mass consensus that it's heading in that direction, regardless of what I personally believe.

No, and I don't think that a mass consensus is in any way relevant to determining whether something is an authoritarian regime or not.

There was never a mass consensus in the USSR that it was authoritarian, because it was not permitted.

When I say not permitted, I do not mean that they had people with guns going "THINK THIS!", but that social pressure and group-think were utilised to ensure that nobody broke ranks - just like media control in the US and UK ensures.

It's very easy to rule people by pitting them against one another, and putting them in a state of fear, envy or suspicion of their fellow cit.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#880

Post by rahoulb »

a_bonobo wrote: post #836
JabavuAdams wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of these are abuses of power, and should be opposed. That said, I'm confident that there is no nation state on Earth that hasn't done these things. Please correct me if you can think of examples. The difference now is that they are affecting mainstream, middle-class, "normal" Americans. While it's good that people are angry about these abuses, it also seems incredibly naive. This is what states do. This is what t…

>That said, I'm confident that there is no nation state on Earth that hasn't done these things. Please, tell me one "first-world" country that has kill lists??

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/14/obama-secret-ki...
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