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Don't Fly During Ramadan

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Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#661

Post by SmokyBorbon »

jwr wrote: post #177
angersock wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've a friend who spent a good deal of time recently in Khazakhstan, and she was very amused by my attempts to express my fears of the United States becoming an authoritarian police state. She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues. The distressing thing is that we've been putting so much machinery into place, and gotten…

> I've a friend who spent a good deal of time recently in Khazakhstan, and she was very amused by my attempts to express my fears of the United States becoming an authoritarian police state. She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues. And she is right — the US is nowhere near being an authoritarian police state. But it i…

No. All of the legal precedents and infrastructure are there for a police state. It's not a slippery slope. It's a cliff. It will only take a single event like another 9/11 to push us off. Overnight this country will turn into the worst totalitarian nightmare the world has ever seen.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#662

Post by dragonwriter »

jlgreco wrote: post #235
ck2 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internment is a revisionist word to make it sound less harsh. They were concentration camps.

Yes, "interment camp" is a euphemism for "concentration camp", but to be fair at about the same time "concentration camp" become a euphemism for "death camp". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment#Concentration_camp

> Yes, "interment camp" is a euphemism for "concentration camp", but to be fair at about the same time "concentration camp" become a euphemism for "death camp".

And "concentration camp" is itself a euphemism for "prison camp". So its probably better if we strip out the euphemisms and refer to:

1. "Prison camps", and

2. "Death camps" (or, even more accurately, "Extermination camps")

(Recognizing that the second is a subset of the first, not a disjoint category.)

And avoid "concentration camps" and "internment camps" entirely.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#663

Post by emiliobumachar »

Zimahl wrote: post #528
serf wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how much of that applies to the TSA? I'd like to know for my own benefit during travel. I know how to speak to a policeman, but I was under the idea that the TSA had even larger authority.

All of it? Why would it only be a portion? Just because you exercise the 5th doesn't mean the police or Feds have to suddenly make you comfortable. He asked for water and probably could've gotten some if he had pushed the issue, it didn't seem as though he was being very vocal about being hungry and thirsty.

How much should one have to scream at armed men before getting water?

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#665

Post by icambron »

biot wrote: post #570
icambron wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An FBI agent in the article: "You’ll have to understand, when a person of your… background walks into here, traveling alone, and sets off our alarms, people start to get a bit nervous. I’m sure you’ve been following what’s been going on in the news recently. You’ve got people from five different branches of government all in here - we don’t do this just for fun." That's profiling. Edit to add: in other words "The que…

The FBI agent's statement rephrased in boolean logic: nervous = background && companions && alarm If the value of alarm is false , nobody gets nervous because the whole expression evaluates to false . The FBI agent did not say "You are being subjected to additional screening because of your background and because you're traveling alone". That they are nervous because of his background and lack of companions is orthog…

I think you're missing that there is a sequence of things that happens here:

  1. he sets off the chemical detector
  2. he is pulled aside for questioning
  3. in that questioning, they discover he has a background that makes them nervous
  4. they hold him for a great deal more questioning
1->2 is standard and would happen to anyone. As other people have pointed out in this thread, it generally takes 15 minutes and is no big deal. It certainly doesn't involve the FBI. While it's never happened to me, it's happened to several people I know and while it was a bit of a hassle, it did not come anywhere near this.

The alarms have already gotten us to 2, and they're not even nervous yet, because they don't know his background and, like you said, without the background being true, the whole expression evaluates to false. That's why the 3->4 transition is a problem, and that's where the profiling comes in. The agent's explanation isn't some non-sequitur, like "yeah, this is totally standard and incidentally we're nervous". He's explaining why they're holding him longer and have brought in agents from five different departments instead of just having a TSA guy chat with him and send him on his way. Notice the escalation as they become more concerned; they care about his background because it makes them think he might be a terrorist. Holding people for questioning when they're nervous that the passenger is a terrorist is actually their job. That's why they did so much, even to the point that they felt the need to explain it.

If answers about his background would not change their behavior towards him, why would they ask about it all? The whole point of gathering information is so that you can make decisions with it.

So then we get to the crux of it: his background makes them nervous and their nervousness causes them to subject him to additional scrutiny, above and beyond the screening he would have endured had he set off the alarm and not had a nervousness-causing background. That's profiling.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#666

Post by danso »

unhappyhippie wrote: post #372
danso wrote: post #29

On an offbeat note, this reminds me of the only time I've ever been thoroughly patted down at an airport. It was in Shreveport and during a weekday, with very little foot traffic. I was with a friend who looks like the classical all-American girl and me, well, I'm a minority but a "Golden Minority" (being facetious about that term, not serious...). Anyway, the TSA people were very nice about pulling us aside and patt…

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "Golden Minority?"

I was going to joke about how you must not have grown up in the 80s-90s, but doing a Google search just now, I see that I might have used the wrong term...

The better known term is "model minority," in which Asians, in America, were held up as what minorities should be like: smart, hard-working, non-confrontational to the status quo:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/thenextamerica/education/asia...

I swear "golden minority" was also a common term, because Asian-Americans were perceived as achieving toward high-pay professions (doctors, engineers, etc) and, well, we're also referred to as "yellow"...but there seem to be very usages of "golden minority" and Asian

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#667

Post by emiliobumachar »

javert wrote: post #299
magikarp wrote: post #118

Everything about this story, right down to the questions, agents involved, luggage inspections and the man's apartment being broken into and searched, fits very well with my own experiences in 2012 with entering the United States. I'm a recent Lebanese immigrant to Canada, male, in my early twenties, and to top it off I work on encryption software. I imagine the only worse thing I could be is an Iranian nuclear scien…

> I imagine the only worse thing I could be is an Iranian nuclear scientist. I would like to think such a person would have no problem coming, but just wouldn't be allowed to go back.

I would not. As bad as it is to refuse entry to a person based on uncorfirmed suspicion, refusing exit is a whole order of magnitude worse.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#668

Post by laureny »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #605
laureny wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She laughed and said that no, I did not understand what it was to have secret police following you about and all these other sorts of issues. She's right, and like her, I have found it next to impossible to explain this to Americans who think the US is turning into a police state. People making this claim should spend a few hours reading on history and learn about the Gestapo or the Stasi. What's happening in the U…

It seems like I'm saying this a lot lately on HN: Better than the worst is not good enough. Most especially, better than the fucking Nazis is not good enough. Tyranny does not happen overnight, and it's helped along by people like you who scoff and say "oh, it's not that bad really" until it's too late. "First they came for the Communists..."

> Tyranny does not happen overnight, and it's helped along by people like you who scoff and say "oh, it's not that bad really" until it's too late.

I'm pointing out a logical mistake in someone's reasoning and now I'm helping tyranny?

Don't you think you're taking this a tad too seriously?

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#669

Post by mpyne »

jrockway wrote: post #195
chimeracoder wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That thought is terrifying. I was afraid I was going to be put on the no-fly list afterwards and would have to travel back to NYC by train (a four-day trip). Even before this experience I used to avoid flying in favor of taking the train. I don't know what I'd do if the TSA became commonplace at train stations.

Take the bus? Drive?

While I agree with the idea that there needs to be some type of security screening for aircraft, I don't think it necessarily follows that we should tell people to either accept episodes like this one or take alternate transportation.

With AQAP's bomb-making experts (who can make bombs with no metal parts whatsoever now) I can see why they need to make super-duper sure that a hit for explosive material is absolutely a false positive.

But that doesn't explain the rude treatment, the confiscation of gear, the refusal to provide water, or having 5 different government agencies (and JetBlue) all gang up on him.

There has to be a more "public serving" way to handle the necessary task of public safety.

Re: Don't Fly During Ramadan

#670

Post by aneth5 »

rsingel wrote: post #237

Do not try to talk your way out of anything. And you do NOT have to and should not answer any questions from law enforcement or the TSA. Ask repeatedly: Am I being detained? Am I free to go? Cops can ask for ID (which you do have to provide, sadly) and can briefly frisk you to look for weapons -- if they have reasonable suspicion to believe a crime has or is about to happen. One other thing of note and what makes thi…

You do have to cooperate with the TSA if you want to get on a plane.

If you intened not to cooperate, you might as well not plan any plane travel.

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